Air America head blasts warrantless wiretaps, 'serial perjurer' Gonzales
On Monday, Hardball invited Mark Green, president of Air America, and former Dick Cheney aide Ron Christie to debate whether the Democrats folded on privacy rights in allowing the passage of expanded warrantless wiretapping of American citizens. However, the guests seemed more interested in arguing about the legislation itself and attacking one another than in discussing whether the Democrats could have defeated the bill.
"They should have fought it, and overwhelmingly they did," Green stated, noting that 80% of House Democrats and 2/3 of Senate Democrats opposed the bill. "We've seen this movie before," he continued. "They've said you're un-American and unpatriotic unless you vote for the war resolution ... the Patriotic Act ..."
"I'm so glad that George Bush is sitting in the Oval Office and he's in a position to protect the American people," Christie interrupted. "Forty-one House Democrats joined a bi-partisan majority to pass this bill to protect the American people, and this demagoguery to the contrary is unsafe, unnecessary, and unproductive."
Chris Matthews asked Green for a specific example of someone whose civil liberties were infringed by the new bill, and Green replied that the Democrats would have been glad to go along with legislation to make it easier to listen in on foreigner-to-foreigner conversations but were unwilling to trust "serial perjurer and incompetent Alberto Gonzales."
Christie objected that Green hadn't answered the question, but Green insisted repeatedly that it was sufficient to say that the bill allows warrantless wiretaps of American citizens.
"You're so wrong here," Christie stated. "The statute actually says that the Attorney General of the United States as well as the Director of National Intelligence has to certify."
"Why should any of us trust Alberto Gonzales?" demanded Green. "You have blind faith in people who have misled us already."
"Director of National Intelligence," Christie tried to say again, as the two men talked over one another until the end of the segment.
The following video is from MSNBC's Hardball, broadcast on August 6.
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Transcript
MATTHEWS: Well, that is good news. Welcome back to HARDBALL. President Bush signed into law legislation that broadly expands the government‘s authority to eavesdrop on international telephone calls and e-mails of American citizens without the use of a warrant.
This after both Congress and the Senate approved the bill. And while no Republicans voted against the bill, 16 Democrats did vote for the bill. Did Democrats fold on privacy rights? That‘s our HARDBALL debate tonight. Mark Green is president of Air America and a public interest lawyer. And Ron Christie is a former aide to Vice President Dick Cheney.
Let me go to you, Mark. Because I‘m not sure what you are going to say. The Democrats should have fought this one? They didn‘t .
MARK GREEN, AIR AMERICA RADIO: They should have fought it and overwhelmingly they did, 80 percent of House Democrats, Chris, voted against this stampede and unwarranted intrusion into the privacy of Americans. Two-thirds of Senate Republicans—I‘m sorry, Senate Democrats opposed it. But enough Blue Dog Democrats in each chamber gave Bush a narrow majority.
I don‘t think this law helps protect our country. It helps protect Bush-Cheney‘s declining popularity. We have seen this movie before. They said you are un-American, unpatriotic unless you vote for the war resolution in the fall elections of ‘02. And then it‘s unpatriotic if you don‘t hurry and within a month vote for the Patriot Act. It‘s unpatriotic that you to allow Homeland Security Agency employees to unionize, as if that helps terrorists.
RON CHRISTIE, FORMER AIDE TO DICK CHENEY: Mark, that doesn‘t have anything to do with this debate.
GREEN: This is the fourth time we have seen this, and it worked narrowly.
CHRISTIE: Mark, you are starting to filibuster here. This—let me just cut you right off there and say this, Mark. I am so glad that George Bush is sitting in the Oval Office and he is in a position to protect the American people. The FISA statute, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, has not been modified since 1978 when Chris‘ old boss, Jimmy Carter, was president of the United States.
We are not talking about warrantless eavesdropping on American citizens. We are talking about terrorists, people in foreign lands, foreign intelligence gathering operations by the United States government to protect this country against attack by foreigners.
For you and some of the other moveon.org people who are trying to demonize the president and demonize the vice president, the fact of the matter is 41 House Democrats joined a bipartisan majority to pass this bill to protect the American people. And this demagoguery to the contrary is unsafe, unnecessary, and unproductive in trying to protect the American people.
GREEN: May I respond?
CHRISTIE: Oh, please.
MATTHEWS: Give us an example if you can, Mark. I know you are good at the anecdotal way of doing this. Tell us an example how this affects the average Americans‘ privacy rights, this bill.
GREEN: Look, Democrats agreed with National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell on a bill that would have responded to what Bush wanted. Because of a secret court decision, it was hard for Americans to listen in on foreigner-to-foreigner conversations that could have been terrorist related.
And so Democrats said, OK, let‘s listen more to them, but let‘s have a report to the inspector general of Justice because we don‘t want to trust this, I think, serial perjurer and confidant, Alberto Gonzales to do it alone.
CHRISTIE: Oh, now wait a second.
GREEN: Excuse me. Let me finish.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: I didn‘t interrupt you.
CHRISTIE: You didn‘t answer his question.
GREEN: My source is Senator Specter and the head of the FBI. Anyway, so the Democrats did agree to do that. Bush said, no good. I want to now politically exploit the situation. You say it is demagoguery. How did George Bush and Dick Cheney go from 70 percent favorable when the whole country united behind that, to 25 percent?
CHRISTIE: OK. See, Mark, this is where we have to stop.
GREEN: Because they are running roughshod over the rule of law. Be my guest.
CHRISTIE: Mark, here is the rule of law here. The fact of the matter is, Chris just asked you to give one specific example in where a civil right or civil liberty of an American was infringed with this legislation.
GREEN: Here is how.
CHRISTIE: You couldn‘t do it.
GREEN: I can. I can.
CHRISTIE: The fact of the matter—no, you couldn‘t do it.
GREEN: Foreigner-to-foreigner, fine. But an American citizen.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Here is the answer.
CHRISTIE: The fact of the matter is, Mark.
GREEN: An American citizen now.
CHRISTIE: The fact of the matter is that we.
GREEN: An American citizen now can wiretapped without warrant.
CHRISTIE: OK. Here we are going to go.
MATTHEWS: Only got a minute left, 30 seconds each. You first, Mark. Answer the question. Give me an example of somebody‘s whose civil liberties are infringed by this new by the president.
CHRISTIE: He can‘t do it.
GREEN: An American speaking to a foreigner now can be wiretapped secretly by Alberto Gonzales without a court approving it and in six of 20,000 instances. The FISA court since 1978 has disapproved of a warrant. That‘s why William Safire and Bob Barr joined the ACLU and Ted Kennedy.
This is not left/right, this is right/wrong.
CHRISTIE: And you are so wrong here. The fact of the matter.
MATTHEWS: Well, he answered the question. He said Americans are going to tapped.
CHRISTIE: Well, no, look—no, but his answer to the question was wrong. The fact of the matter having—you know, Mark, you are a lawyer. I‘m a little disappointed. You must not have had time to read the statute. The statute actually says that the attorney general of the United States as well as the director of national intelligence has to certify.
And in fact, if you go specifically to the statute, Mark, it goes in specific detail about how, if Americans in the course of this foreign surveillance are listened to that they are expunged from the record, their names are expunged, and there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.
So again, you have done a fantastic job of demagoguing the issue, a poor job of reading up on the statute. And again, I‘m so glad that this president is in the Oval Office.
MATTHEWS: OK. Ad hominems don‘t work here. But your response, Mark.
GREEN: Look, apparently you haven‘t been reading the newspapers. I understand your loyalty to Dick Cheney.
CHRISTIE: I don‘t read the newspaper. I actually read the law.
GREEN: Apparently you look at—I‘m sorry, I didn‘t interrupt you.
CHRISTIE: I‘m not interesting in what.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Let him finish. He has to respond to your attack.
GREEN: Why in the world after an administration that went from 70 percent to 25 percent favorable? Because Americans thought they misled us into war and haven‘t been telling the truth about warrantless wiretapping. Why should any of us trust Alberto Gonzales when the Democrats said, all right, we‘ll allow wiretapping foreigner-to-foreigner, but how about reporting it to the Department of Justice.
CHRISTIE: Because—listen, you aren‘t listening to me because.
GREEN: You have blind faith in people who have misled us already.
CHRISTIE: Mark, Mark, again, you weren‘t listening to me.
GREEN: You are being na‹ve, Ron.
CHRISTIE: Oh, please, don‘t even start personal attacks with me.
GREEN: Personal attacks, that is all you have done so far.
CHRISTIE: It‘s the attorney general of the United States and the director of national intelligence.
(LAUGHTER)
CHRISTIE: Hey, Mark, read your statute now before coming on HARDBALL and run (ph) the play (ph).
MATTHEWS: OK. Guys, you went over the side here. Anyway, thank you very much, Mark Green. Thank you, Ron Christie, for a vigorous debate, which did include some ad hominem.
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