Democratic Party strategist James Carville offered up a new strategy for Democrats to follow in their battle to reform health care: Let the GOP defeat it, then defeat the GOP at the ballot box.
At a roundtable discussion with Republican consultant Mary Matalin and host John King on CNN's State of the Union, Carville argued that if the Democrats can come up with an agreement that is supported by most Democratic members of Congress, they should let the GOP filibuster it, thereby killing health care reform and effectively painting the Republicans as being the party that opposed fixing the system.
That, Carville implied, would backfire on the GOP in upcoming elections.
"Put a bill out there, make them filibuster it," Carville said. "Make them be what they are — the party of no. ... And you know what? Run on it. Let them kill it. Let them kill it with the interest group money, then run against them. That's what we ought to do."
From CNN's Web site:
“What about this?,” Carville said Sunday on CNN’s State of the Union, “Suppose they pass a House bill that can get 56 Senate Democrats.” Then, Carville suggested, instead of using reconciliation, a special budgetary maneuver in Senate procedure that frustrate GOP attempts to mount a filibuster, Democrats should call for a vote. “And make [Republicans] filibuster it. But the old kinda way is that they filibuster it and make’em go three weeks and all night and [Democrats] will be there the whole time.
“Then, you say, ‘They’re the people that stopped it. We had a majority of Democrats. We had a good bill. They stopped it.’"
Matalin, for her part, disagreed that the GOP would pay a price if health reform failed.
President Obama “will be fine but the Democrats in Congress won’t," she said. "And you’re already hearing Democrats in Congress saying, ‘This is déjà vu. This is what happened with Bill Clinton. He makes us walk the plank and then we lose’ — as they did ... in 1994."
-- Daniel Tencer
That is truly cutting your nose off to spite your face.
It won't help, Jim..
1. It's so unpopular, only the liberals will care. Everyone else will be convinced they dodged a bullet.
2. They HAVE THE VOTES TO PASS ANYTHING THEY WANT.. Blaming the R's won't help.
This was a bait and switch from the beginning. The uber-party has been pulling this FOR YEARS, and this time the mask is slipping.. People are starting to SEE Jim.
Once they realize what's been done to them, they'll never forgive any of you.
I think this is the way to wake Americans up. Lets go for it, the time for nice is over and never works with the Republican payola party anyway.
I think it's sad that every negative comment by anyone finds space on liberal web pages. alongside side are photos of the bussed in protestors and the daily comments of Palin, Blue Dogs, Grasley and any opposition voice. Either were not speaking out o werer
Matalin is wrong. It wasn't health care defeat that hurt the Democrats in 1994, it was the tax hike that they voted for. Republicans used that vote against them. Unfortunately for the Republicans, thta vote helped Clinton reduce the federal debt. One would think that a political consultant would get things right. What else does Matalin get wrong.
If a well written public option is not included in the final bill ..I agree with Carville...and I would include kicking out the blue dogs who are fighting against a public option ..never mind the preferable single payer...
The only way we can fight against the oligarchs is to force competition into the equation...which is a a conservative free market value ..right?
Run against the Blue Dog Dems in the primary elections for betraying the people who elected them and the Democratic leadership. Clean our own house first, and then go after the Republicans.
Progressive Dems need to kill this bill if they think it is a sell-out and won't fix the problems. Better to have no bill than a bad bill that lets the GOP say, "Told you so."
Progressives knew as soon are Rahm was appointed WH chief of staff that Obama was going to stiff them. And so he has. Escalated war, increased defense spending, continuation of Bush unitary exec power-grabs, no prosecution for crimes, even admitted ones, no addressing of the Constitutional crisis over illegal wire-tapping, selling out health care reform to the industry, on and on. So far, it's been crumbs off the table instead of a seat at the table for the people who actually elected Obama.
As Howard Dean said, there need to be primaries for all the Establishment Dems that are corporatists. The US is run by people on the take in both parties, and nothing will change as long as this travesty persists.
Oh great... so more WAITING to "defeat" them at the next election. Meanwhile, they can inflict as much damage as possible between now and then. The fact is, until AMERICANS stop voting for these same rich business criminal c***suckers who betray them EVERY DAY, then this will get worse and worse, like it already is. Don't talk to me about "blue-dogs", because it's more of that "old-boy" network crap that they call each other like it's okay, what they're doing. These scumbags need to be taken off the field altogether and not allowed to participate.
We need and END to both parties, and the 2 party system altogether.
An END to lobbying! An END to the political campaign contribution system. A PERMANENT END to allowing so much as even ONE senator or congressman being permitted to sit on the board of any company, think-tank, or hold any consultancy positions. Their children should be compelled to attend public schooling and ONLY public schooling, to ensure that THEIR kids get the same education as OUR kids.
I totally agree with Carville.
Without the cost-saving measures of a public option, let the Republicans kill that health reform legislation. Otherwise with watered-down, crappy health reform, health insurance costs will continue to rise and the Democrats will have effectively killed any chance for the American people to support and be helped by health insurance reform.
Health insurance reform is for the American people. So, next time instead of Public Option, call it The American Plan:
http://www.brianfalldin.com/2009/08/how-to-frame-health-care/
- Tom
Where are the"YES WE CAN" bunch now? Hey, you are needed to let your voice be heard again.
Earth to Carville -- Obama has already blamed our health care mess on the GOP - it was a large part of his campaign in 2008. The only problem is that both he and the Democrats in Congress seem to be bought and paid for by corporations. They don't really want to change anything because they live in fear of losing millions from the corporations who own them. So are you saying we should go through this charade again, to elect Democrats again, so they can fail at reform again????
Carville is right. Why should the only option be the one that consumes 31% of the total in administrative costs? Don't give up until the public option part of the bill.
Yes, and then get rid of the repukes and the "blue dog" repukes. Time to really sweep congress free of these corporate leeches.
EXPAND MEDICARE FOR ALL OR THE DEMS ARE FINISHED JUST LIKE U.S.A THIS COUNTRY IS A CORP OLIGARGHY
I agree. People don't respect wimps. If you think it's right, stand up for it. Make it clear how much money the fillibusterers are taking from the insurance industry.
As I recall, the Dems ALREADY WON the election. Why try to rope-a-dope them until 2010/12? Carville is a political strategist and is blinded by it. Not to mention that he was dead wrong in working against Howard Dean's 50 state strategy last year. The Dems should press their advantage now, while they can. They're not going to convince anyone who isn't already on board except by passing healthcare reform and having Joe Sixpack see that it isn't going turn him into a escargot-eating, lorry-driving, lederhosen wearing Euromerican.
I am truly depressed, and literally feeling ill at the news that the Administration is waffling on the Public Option...because it represents the only hope that I, as a small-business manager in Southern California, have left to continue offering decent, affordable health insurance to my workers and our families.
The President and HHS Secretary Sebelius MUST realize that any attempt at cooperation- or compromise with the opposition will be seized upon- and exploited as a sign of weakness by the Republicans and their zombie hoards...and yet they have already surrendered the end-of-life counseling issue - which got us nothing in return except demands for even MORE concessions, and more retreats from our principles.
The Administration must know that the "Co-op" concept is an fatally-flawed scheme with less than a snow-ball's chance of surviving -- much less of succeeding in the real world of mega-insurers which will see to it that cooperating physicians are frozen-out of providing care to the `conventionally-insured'.
Every Liberal and Moderate American (Republican and Democrat) who comprehends the dire consequences of failing to remake the U.S. health care system must make it starkly clear to the Blue-Bitch Democrats (for this properly describes their status relative to their insurance corp masters) that they will be targeted for defeat in the next election cycles for cooperating to smother meaningful health care reform in its cradle.
As a lifelong Democrat, I will never vote for another Democrat if health care is not passed with a public option. That's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
I'm out.
Done.
I may actually leave the USA. This country is full of complete idiots and run by corrupt politicians. It's not a good mix and doesn't bode well for the future.
I think I prefer someplace where everyone actually reads and believes in science.
[...] [...]
2Jhoffa_ you nailed it. Too many Dems are playing it safe (what a shock!). The two-party system is dead for all practical purposes.
Fuck kkkonsevatives.
Isn't that nice, husband and wife appearing on the same show at the same time.
The Democrats are not in control of the Senator if the Blue Dogs are against any piece of legislation. If healthcare reform comes out of congress without a public option, the Democrats will be blamed, the Republicans will make sure of that come election day.
Why aren't the Dems having regular people who have been hurt by the insurance companies speak out at the town hall meetings? How many heartbreak stories would it take from patients who were denied necessary care and who were then forced to pay out of pocket resulting in bankruptcy to turn this fight around? How many stories from family members about insurance companies denying necessary procedures resulting in the death of a loved one to turn this fight around? How many stories about people being denied health insurance after changing jobs over a pre-existing condition would it take to turn this fight around? If the Dems were serious about winning the fight they would go on the offensive with hard hitting testimonials from regular folks who have been screwed. I’m sure they could find many former Republican voters to go on stage and tell their story along with independent voters and Dem voters.
The very fact that the Dems are not doing this means that they don't really want to win. This is all just for show -- the mean old Repugnants stopped us, we tried but, they made us fail. The 2 Party System has stopped serving the people and has outlived its usefulness. It's time for some serious competition from independents to throw the bums out.
I have an idea about health care that's similar to how I view religion in this country.
Everyone should be free to practice and believe whatever religion or way of life they believe in, as long as it doesn't hurt other people and their beliefs are not imposed on people who choose not to live that way.
Pertaining to the health care debate, I think there should be a government-sponsored public option that is available to everyone who chooses to enroll and participate in that form of health care. Those who choose to remain in the private health care system are free to do so, as long as they don't interfere (interfear?) with the ability of others to participate in a government-sponsored public option. They can be against it all they want, but cannot and should not be able to impose their beliefs on others, thereby preventing others from participating in the public program.
You could even break it out by party affiliation. Democrats and Independents would be covered by the plan (except Blue Dog Dems, who are hardly true Democrats), but Republicans would be required to stay in the private system.
Another idea is to make the entire government participation in health care be an all or nothing decision; either Medicare or a Medicare-like option covers everybody who chooses to enroll is passed into law, or the government will wash their hands of ALL health care involvement by abolishing Medicare/Medicaid and all health-related tax breaks currently in effect. If people are so against the government being involved, then let's see how they like not having the government involved AT ALL!
In the three years it would take for this country's health care system to completely fail, we could solve nearly all our current budget and deficit problems with all the savings that would be realized. Then, by 2012 the country would come to its senses about how much they need the government to help them.
"1. It's so unpopular, only the liberals will care. Everyone else will be convinced they dodged a bullet.
2. They HAVE THE VOTES TO PASS ANYTHING THEY WANT.. Blaming the R's won't help. "
So, the lies the media has told to paint this a bad bill, that doesn't matter in your thinking? The fact that we NEED reform, that we NEED to put insurance companies in check, that's not important? That 75% wanted a public option, doesn't matter? If we go based on FACT, and the final bill does _not_ contain "mandating insurance for everyone", then the general public will have no issues with the bill. You and I both know it. People have a problem with the _percieved_ bill(s) (some not even released yet), but that's thanks to a failed media (or, successful media, if you're part of the mega-corps that run the country).
Premise 2 above is a perfect example of not paying attention. They do NOT have the votes, because "blue dogs" are not Democrats, and the "Ds" don't play like the Rs do.. they don't line up in a row behind party leaders, even when the plan is _seriously flawed_.. In fact, the right-wing's ability to form ranks is what allowed the Shrub to run this country into a ditch. Certainly you can agree with that. ... so, with all the DINOs out there, you STILL say they can "pass whatever they want"? Define "they"? .. seriously, you're spewing lie after distortion and right-wing talking points.
Well well Bam bam is now dropping the socialistic option. Hahaha he cave's in faster than a fancy soufle. Gotta love it. Some sothern senator's probably cornered him in the cloak room and said lookee here, you are not gonna turn this country into Cuba and dont forget it.
Simple answer to the problem. Just slash taxes and give people voucher's to buy insurance tell the people who refuse to do the right thing and live better live's that they are just gonna die if they dont get their act's together and absolutely do not spend a dime on abortion's or illegal's. Our health care system will turn around in a hot second. If people wanna leave and move to some foreign country then do that. Youll be wanting to come back to the greatest country on earth soon enough.
America home of the brave land of the FREE!
The Establishment would probably love for us to take Carville's advice, or at least the first part of it. Let the GOP defeat health care reform, further eroding support for the Democrats. Then, in a "surprise" twist, let the GOP regain control of one or both houses of Congress. Then, health care reform can go away and the status quo will be safe.
@ Red Stater
Please, tell me exactly how cutting taxes and issuing vouchers will cause the health care system to "turn around in a hot second"? And just where will the money come from for your "voucher" system?
I'm giving you way more credit that you deserve by responding to your comment, but I'm curious how you think your solution is supposed to work.
Mary Matalin is always wrong ... especially when she married Carville.
So screw health care? Let's use it as a political tool to make the republican's lose big and look foolish too! Sorry, I think they already look foolish and they're already going to lose and I want health care.
If the bill has no public option on it... then the dems should kill it themselves and concentrate on ending the war and fixing the economy and come back to the healthcare issue when we're a few Blue Dogs and Repugs less.
This fiasco is proof of who the insurance companies own and how badly we need to break their hold. To clean up this mess we need to first stop a bad bill and then clean our own house. Get rid of the Blue Dog Dems who are Corporatists through primary elections. They are betraying the people who elected them. Then introduce and pass an American Plan / Single Payer, putting an end to Corporate Leaches and corruption in our own party.
What won't this man do to get laid by his own wife?
I agree with James!!!
Carville may be correct but in the mean time we're trying to solve a problem here. If all he and MS. Cheneeeeey Jr. have to worry about, with their riches and fine health care, are what the papers say about them tomorrow they don't care ONE IOTA about what happens to the average joe on the street...they spew a good game but add nothing to defining a 'FIX"...
I have a better idea. Why not let the Dems just continue doing what they are doing, blaming the repubs for everything, when they know it is ordinary Americans who oppose their socialist plans? This way the Dems will be exposed for what they really are, narrow minded, anti democratic, anti American, fools!
The Democrats don't realize, but they are at their peak in terms of
seats they now hold in the House and Senate. The have the so-called 60-votes
in the Senate, but they are not reliable. Senator Reid cannot mount a fight
for anything, except for a centrist Supreme Court nominee with a
conservative record. Maybe in 2010 when the now disgusted base of
the Democratic party votes Green or abstains, both houses will lose Democratic
numbers and Reid and Pelosi will give up their leadership positions in
shame. Obama will be a one-term president unless he fights for something that
the base favors, but he keeps backtracking. FISA, war in Iraq/Afghanistan, prosecution of former Administration officials, can't fire a single US Attorney, etc.
Keep your home in Chicago in good shape Mr President, you will be moving back in January 2013.
Carville is a shape shifting reptilian in descise who is out to destroy America. Just look at his credentials if you don't believe me, he was instrumental in giving us Bill Clinton for president.
Sounds good as a strategy, but it's a LAME proposition that will leave nearly 50 million Americans stranded without healthcare - what, really, is James Carville, with his NeoCon wife, but a shill for the media, posing as a Democrat?
Republicans got a lot of their stuff through congress by way of budget reconciliation.What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I respectfully disagree with Mr. Carville on this one.
Huh? What's the point Mr Carville? Democrats already won the election. They already have a majority. What's the point if after winning an election you still can't pass progressive bills because the other side insists on playing dirty? Winning for the sake of winning as you seem to be advocating won't last long if you can't pass good bills once you're in. Why would people continue to vote for you in the future if you can't fulfill the promises you made the first time around?
No, the Repugs have now learned that all they have to do to win is scream and throw temper tantrams and threaten to bring the country down into anarchy if they don't get their childish way. When will Democrats stand up to them, eyeball to eyeball? If Dems are lame ducks even with a majority, which was a rare gift, because when push comes to shove they refuse to fight for what they believe in then they'll never be able to pass anything progressive and they might as well just pack it in right now and just hand the country over to the fascists. Change the flag over to a confederate one, reinstitute slavery, force everyone to become a fundamenatalist Christian, destroy the environment etc. etc.
James is wrong again. The same old politics cannot continue indefinitely.
We gave the Democratic party the power and the leadership to carry out their platform.
Let them do it now, nor never.
Won't get fooled agin.
Why are all my posts always "awaiting moderation", and remain that way until the thread has expired?
The Blue Dogs aren't long for this world. Cash those lobbyist checks as soon as you get them. The obstructionist pro-billionaire Goopers at least have the 20% batshit crazy racist vote. Who have you got?
I just attended the Obama rally and the teaparty rally over he weekend in Grand Junction Colorado.
The Grand Junction solution is an HMO approach with a three star hospital that only fixes a few things around the edges and seems to rely on a committee of doctors / businessmen that are willing to cut "unnecessary care" to provide savings. It is not really a solution at all and there has been no mention of outcomes. You can look it up. Bear in mind that death in an operating room is considered " natural cause" in Grand Junction.
I am convinced that single payer is best, as in the rest of the civilized world.
A public option is second best only if it leads to a single payer system and the third choice can only be to vote the rascals out. If John Salazar does not vote for the house bill for single payer he will not have my veto. If Blue Cross is still in business in three years Oboma will not have my vote. The Senators will also be remembered.
I do understand the politicians responding to the lobbyist (Damn em all !}, but I don't understand why in the world the teaparty folks don't want my granddaughter to see a doctor outside or an emergency room or an Emergency Care Office. Her daddy is an out of work oil driller and she is only three years old.
Figure it out folks or go kick a rock down the road.
James is right. Tossing the public option overboard will be seen as a major sell-out to the insurance companies. Make Republicans run on their record---of denying health care to the most needy.
hey Jhoffa_ you are so full of corporate media you float!
hourglass
[psst ... dick armey is a lying sack of shit ... pass it on]
It's not about health care or anything else. It's about the "black" guy in office. They have the media, lobbyists, corporations, blow-job democrats, the murderess military, millions of dumbass people and it seems like "90" right-wing senators. And you think some labor unions, doctors, nurses, educated people, scientists, musicians, movie stars, writers, directors AND people that work extremely hard every day that know their shit can defeat this "shit storm?" I get hoarse everyday telling people they are full of shit.
Carville is a political god and this is exactly why health insurance reform WILL pass, and the GOPheads know it.
It would be funny to see the senate with 70 democrat senators, and that means changing the constitution!!!
All we need is 6 more and we can start some real Change.
So the more the GOP obstructs the more they are constructing a perpetual democrat majority, it is wonderful.
Game over GOP, try again next century
Yours in Healthy Plasma,
Star*Dagger
Vouchers is a republican's idea of marijuana, but without all the smoking.
@Svanster.
"So, the lies the media has told to paint this a bad bill, that doesn't matter in your thinking?"
Didn't say that.. I said only the liberal democrats will care. A percentage of Democrats. It has to be a percentage of Democrats (the liberal faction) because the "Blue Dog" moderate faction is the on that just shot it in the head.. So it's not even all democrats.
Blame the gop and everyone simply roll their eyes and make jokes, because you have control of all three branches of government.
"Premise 2 above is a perfect example of not paying attention. They do NOT have the votes..."
Admittedly: I know that.. I know about your moderate dem problem. WE ALL KNOW. That's why Carville is an idiot.
Picking a fight with the GOP when you have 60 democrats in the Senate, totally dominate the house and have a new and popular President is ridiculous, cause the problem is in the Senate. (See Howard Dean's solution below)
The reason it is ridiculous is because people are going to say: "But, but.. You can't even convince YOUR OWN party to vote for this.. So how's it Rush Limbaugh's fault?" Or the GOP's fault or this or that.. or whatever.
The GOP didn't "kill" this bill.. The Blue Dogs did.. You said so yourself.
We all know it.. Why Carville is still foaming at the mouth, I haven't a clue.
While Carville is wanting to run out and blame the party out of power.. Obama is back stabbing and lying about it. The Hill has a piece from Saturday where he admitted, himself, that the public option wasn't even necessary. That's a flat out 180 turn from his previous statements..
“President Barack Obama himself on Saturday suggested he won’t insist on a public option."
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/administration-shifts-on-public-health-option-2009-08-16.html
But it's the R's fault according to Carville?
Now, in contrast.. Over at the Think Progress, Howard Dean is threatening dissenters with primary challenges. He's not backing away.. Obama is backing away. He's pulling a bait and switch. He's made deals with PHARMA. He's waffling big time.
"Mis-Spoke" my ass.. His HHS secretary isn't saying ANYTHING different than he said on Saturday.
Carville is merely re-directing anger away from Obama and the con job.
So who's fighting the good fight? Not Carville! Not Obama either.. It's Dean!
Here, see for yourself:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/13/dean-there-will-be-primaries-if-health-reform-passes-without-public-option/
I'll freely admit, I don't want this bill to pass at all.. I want the monopolies broken up and the system itself reformed, and GENUINE competition fostered, before we even begin talking about mandated coverage..
But, if we're going to have a Romney style mandate shoved down our throats, then I want the public option on the table.. Cause it's the only way to control it and tamp costs down. Take the money out of it via artificial competition in the form of a public option.
" Too many Dems are playing it safe (what a shock!). The two-party system is dead for all practical purposes."
Oh yeah.. Of course.
Obama's lying through his teeth and carville is spinning like a top.
Nobody "mis-spoke"
See the links above. Obama said the same thing on Saturday that his HHS secretary "mistakenly" said today. He's the one cutting deals with Pharma. Seen your Canadian drugs yet? Of course not.. Because it's a scam.
Carville is just out to spin it.. And, admittedly, this kind of red meat politics plays well with disappointed, dejected masses.. But it won't change a thing and it doesn't address the problem..
And the problem is in the Senate. There's 60 guys in there with D's behind their names and if they can't be convinced to vote for this, then Carville's tactics will only make him look desperate.
And what does this do for the American people? What good are Democrats if they can't win anything, even with a supermajority, yet the Republicans are victorious even with a radical lunatic fringe? Schmuck.
Jim, we WON the last election hands down!! If you can't do anything when you already have won you are worthless. Get it done.
Except for one small detail, you dick licking Third Way sonofabitch.
It's the DEMOCRATS that are killing health care. Kent Conrad and Max Baucus and a handful of others are siding with Republicans to filibuster any bill with a public option.
Now I know that might suit all you corporatist Terry MacAuliffe supplicants who have made bribe taking the norm for Democratic operations, but it ain't workin' for us, wise ass.
So if they can't get a public option done with two thirds majorties in both houses, the White House, three fourths of the public's support for such an option, and approval for Republicans at an all-time low, well, fuck 'em: let's defeat DEMOCRATS in 2010. What the fuck good are they?
How's that sound, Baldy?
I honestly could care less if a bunch of Blue Dogs lose their seats. There's no difference between them and the Republicans that would replace them.
I think we just need to fight for the best bill we can get.
Unexpectedly, I'm agreeing with jhoffa!
I saw Howard up at the Androscoggin County Dems annual barbecue in Poland Spring, Maine yesterday, and he says, "The Blue Dogs made this a better bill", referring to the $1/2 million threshold for small businesses, which those paying less out a year are exempt from required offering. Great to see a lot of my old DFA pals there too.
pd is also correct: Carville bet the farm that Howard was wrong about the 50-state strategy, and Carville lost. Howard is the man.
The Democratic Congress has had low public approval numbers but they just don't seem to give a shit. It seems a bit naive to think they are going to suddenly change and start representing the people that put them in office. Corporate America pays so much better than we do, any whore can do that math and these whores are no different.
All of you socialist fear mongers, I hope you do not ride in airplanes.
the airports are socialistic, and so are the air controllers. Live your stupidity.
Unfortunately, the American body politic on balance is the most infantile, uneducated, and purely stupid in the industrial world. Why? Because of forty years of unchallenged right-wing ideological propaganda that government and taxes are, by nature, a bad thing. But in a system where the people are ostensibly sovereign, government and taxes are merely tools for solving problems people cannot solve individually. (Time for the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine.)
In terms of health care, the adolescent egotism of those who are worried so much about their own bad health care insurance they don't want to enable others to get any health care insurance is despicable. The crybabies who think a pubic option is going to turn their country into the Soviet Union are so ignorant it is astounding that America continues to function, considering these morons are given such a big, decisive voice in the debate. (And I find Kent Conrad of ND absolutely disgusting.)
As we slide toward a system of Corporate Feudalism, where the government becomes a tool for corporations and the enslavement of the people (and ignorance is its own kind of slavery), the History that survives will report that America went down because of the ability of stupid people and corrupt corporation execs who only care about their multimillion dollar salaries to determine the outcome of policy debates.
Good bye, America.
//P.
Huh. Democracy or non-democracy at it's finest....GOP Argentina style...
I want a public option! Without that we have nothing, and I am adament against
nothing! WAKE UP! Let the politicians refuse to give us what we want or we give
THEM a walking ticket! They will understand that! Down with the largest criminal
organism in the nation - the FEDERAL LEGISLATURE! (As Mark Twain so well
defined them) I would like to see our voters stand up and throw these petty
thieves out of office once and for all. SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!
James,
I case you haven't noticed, it is not Republicans it is republican-like Democrats. The Republicans can't stop a damn thing. It is, as usual, the weak kneed democrats, bought and paid for by the health care industry, who are killing real reform with this co-op bullshit. Guess what we who supported them and Obama know this, and they will pay a heavy price in 2010.
Either the government imposes its will on the people, or the people stand up and impose their will on the government -- there's no "in between."
Voting for and passing a stinking pile of cr@p won't help the Democrats get (re)elected. It'll just be used against them. Present the best possible bill and if it gets defeated, then so be it. Worrying that they have a victory on this is like winning a battle at the cost of not being able to continue on to finish the war.
I don't understand why Americans feel there is a need for large corporations to profit off of the sick and dying.
Why I am opposed to ANY govt meeddling in health care:
1) It would be ILLEGAL, being an obvious/blatant violation of the 10th Amendment.
2) It would be IMMORAL, as no one should be forced to pay for the health care of another.
3) It would be INSANE, as the ONLY thing this govt is good at is KILLING people and DESTROYING things.
Each party should state clearly their positions and put a Bill for a vote. Each should articulate what's in the future for each position articulated. What happens if we continue the Health Care the way it is now, what with minor changes, what with the public option and vote. No body should accept compromises that alienate their convictions (that goes for Democrats and Repubilcans).
You think fascism ended in Nazi Germany, it's alive and well in a different form here in the good old USA, it's just called Corpotocracy. Where corporations control everything and are known as "people." So forget about reform it just won't happen. Progressivism is dead.
The Dems are in big trouble if they do not pass a public option.
I am totally disgusted with them. They continue to look like a bunch of weak dogs.
What is wrong with the Dems?
The Repubs would never back down from one of their goals that they ran on.
The idea isn't to LET them beat it. The idea is if they do in fact beat something that is worthwhile, then smash them on the head in the next election. Included in that smash them on the head are the Blue Dogs and Baucus, in other words, those who are bought and paid for wholly owned subsidiaries of the insurance industry.
But it would be a total failure if we gave away the store and put in a mandate to have insurance, but didn't have something that would be valid competition to the insurance industry. The only thing on the horizon that qualifies under that definition is the public option. The coops have shown that they don't work.
I have to kind of agree. Unless there is robust public option let them kill it. Hammer the republicans in 2010 and get the votes needed to make the current "blue dogs" obsolet and get single payer system we need.
But...I thought the GOP has already been defeated. Carville's idea is not a good one. What? We defeat the GOP again and still no health care for the 45 million uninsured?
Hey Carville!
In case you haven't noticed, the Dems own the WHITE HOUSE, SENATE, and CONGRESS!
It's now or never!
My god, if we lose to a minority and fringe, moronic wackos on the corporate payroll, it is fucking over! The Bush Dark Ages will continue for a long time.
I disagree strongly with Carville on this one. If the Democrats can't get real health care reform (with a strong public option) passed with 60 in the Senate and a huge majority in the congress then what in the hell is the point? The Democrats get the blame if they can't get this done. This isn't time to be saying crap like this. This is time to be saying any Democrat who doesn't support The Public Option is CUT OFF. They should get NOTHING from the party. NOTHING.
We must contact our Democratic Congressman and our Democratic Senators and tell them: If you don't support the Public Option I am never campaigning for you or donating to you again and I will strongly support any real Democrat who challenges you in a primary.
It's time they do what we put them in office for. Their supporters overwhelmingly support The Public Option.
And Carville is dead wrong if he thinks that the Republicans can be blamed at this point.. The Democrats will get all of the blame. It's time to get it done! This is what the last election was for! We don't need to wait until 2011.
I am inclined to agree with Carville. That way we can have the public option like a civilian VA and then shrink the private health care industry down to something we can drown in toilet bowl and flush. Having worked in socialized medicine called the U.S. Navy as a Navy Corpsman I can tell you it works better than the civilization side. The latter consists of profiteers who could not care less about the health outcomes of their patients.
RECONCILIATION!!! Get a Bill with Public Option, bargaining for drugs, no pre-condition notification, and anything or everything the liberal Democrats in congress want and pass it! Medicare works!! The VA health System works!! The NHS in the UK works! In Canada, Sweden and most other countries with national health systems, it works! Congress is being held hostage by people worried more about being re-elected than doing what the majority of Americans want! Who gives a sh!t what Carville thinks? He is more Republican Lite than Democrat anyway.
Carville:
"Let the GOP nuke every major city in AMERICA, and then we can boast that we're the better party forever. We will never fail as Democrats. For God, for Party, for Honor!!!!!!"
"Oh, and , if they eat live babies on television, we'll just remain calm, and let the public see exactly who they're dealing with, because for me personally, I could give a shit about the country. It's all about the game of politics. Because I'm a Democrat and that's all that matters is my fucking meaningless titles. I also smile all the time because this whole thing is a game to me and I could really give two shits about reality, for me , it's like football. Go RAIDERS!!!"
My comment is on Carville. This political creep gets his rocks off on the political fight, and nothing else…other than his bank account. Carville, the political genius that he is thinks it is a problem with Republicans when he knows that it is a problem with the ethically bankrupt so-called centrist Democrats who might as well be Republicans. So for him, and his right wing nut wife, this is all too much fun.
DEREGULATED CORPORATE GREED
SPREADING LIES to the American public
FALSE ADVERTISING & SMEARING
STAGED "PROTESTS"
SWIFT-BOAT TYPE ADVERTISING
SELLING FEAR & CHAOS
is
what DEREGULATED corporate America is about
and it is killing American economy and Americans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
That's something to do at the end of Obama's term, not the beginning. We need health care reform NOW!
I agree, at some point and time the republicans are going to have to stand up and vote. Right now they can claim they are for healthcare reform and don't have to say what the reform is. They can sit for months and make crap up what they "would" have done, no matter how self serving and a lie it would be.
I also agree with Matalin on one point, if the republicans don't vote on it, they'll rub in the democrats faces saying that they would have voted it if they were in charge and had a chance and that the democrats are wimps and this proves it.
If Obama folds on this he has proven that he is a corporate shill. Where was all the talk of saving his political capital for healthcare and other big things. I mean shit where is Rahm in all of this he should be out twisiting the arms of blue dogs to get enough votes. Instead he appears to be agreeing with em.
Obama should say:
1) If Rahm can't get this passed he fired as Chief of Staff since he obviously can't do his job.
2) Any Democrat who doesn't support a public option ain't getting any democratic help or funding in any future election.
3) Kick fucking Sebulius out as Health sec and get in Dean if she backing down on the Public Option she obviously ain't doing her job.
4) Restate what you said in July (one fucking month ago) that as President I won't sign a bill that doesn't have the Public Option.
5) Regarding Max Baucus no nice way to say this but Max should be taken around the back of the white house and shot in the head. Lets see the 1.6 million Big Pharma gave him in contributions save him from that.
Put the public option in budget reconciliation a tactic which requires only 51 votes in the senate. No fillibuster allowed on a vote on the budget.Republicans used this parliamentary device to get a lot of their stuff through the senate on a simple majority vote.
I have a suspecion that the so call "blue dogs" are actually Republicans in sheep's clothing. Think about it, don't you think they've considered it in their smoke filled back rooms? Run as centrist Democrats to pull in as many votes as you can from both sides then vote Republican, especially on the issues that matter.
67M. Gilmore said:
"Why I am opposed to ANY govt meeddling in health care:
1) It would be ILLEGAL, being an obvious/blatant violation of the 10th Amendment.
2) It would be IMMORAL, as no one should be forced to pay for the health care of another.
3) It would be INSANE, as the ONLY thing this govt is good at is KILLING people and DESTROYING things."
I assume that you will refuse unemployment and Social Security when the time comes as well right?
Disenfranchised (78), well said.
How can I trust Carville with anything, since he's married to Matalin?
I don't.
Yeah rather than successfully lead a piece of legislation, the Dems should toss away ten months in a single-issue year for one-upsmanship. Guy's an idiot.
I like Neil Clarks' idea "make it starkly clear to the Blue-Bitch Democrats... that they will be targeted for defeat in the next election cycles for cooperating to smother meaningful health care reform in its cradle."
And Jimbo's "Carville is a shape shifting reptilian"
who bet his reputation against Howard Dean's 50 state strategy
and lost, was proved totally wrong. If Carville had goten his way we Democrats would have LOST THE '08 ELECTION.
" targeted for defeat" I like that, rank and file Dems are
starting to wake up about the political critters that ignore the Base.
Oh, and the guy who would un-elect Rep. John Salazar...
Call me, I'll help you.
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[...] [...]
[...] Intelligence Coming out of Raw Story: Carville: Let GOP Kill Health Care – and Then Run Against Them, Raw Story, (headline on Aug. 17, 2009, but no date given), by Daniel Tencer, excerpt quoted [...]