In an interview with PBS's Bill Moyers, a former insurance executive reveals a secret plan by the insurance industry to discredit Michael Moore's health care documentary, 'Sicko.' The plan included lobbyists threatening negative, attack-style ads aimed at politicians who supported the formation of a government sponsored public health care option during election campaigns.
Michael Moore alerted us to Friday evening's PBS Bill Moyers Show interview with Wendall Potter, a former executive with insurance giant CIGNA:
We've just been informed that Bill Moyers, on his show tonight, will expose for the first time the health insurance industry's secret campaign against Michael Moore and his film, "Sicko." It contains a stunning revelation and admission by a top health insurance executive -- the former head of publicity for CIGNA, one of the top health insurance companies in the country -- that the disinformation and attacks on Michael and the film were extensive and well-planned. Their job was to stop the movie from reaching a wide audience (and, more importantly, from having the widespread political impact the industry feared "Sicko" would have).
Wendell Potter, former Head of Corporate Communications at CIGNA (which provides health insurance to nearly 70 percent of the Fortune 100 companies) admits that, in fact, "Sicko" "hit the nail on the head" and told the real truth about how much better people in other countries have it when it comes to their health care.
From PBS's website:
In his first television interview since leaving the health insurance industry, Wendell Potter tells Bill Moyers why he left his successful career as the head of Public Relations for CIGNA, one of the nation's largest insurers, and decided to speak out against the industry. "I didn't intend to [speak out], until it became really clear to me that the industry is resorting to the same tactics they've used over the years, and particularly back in the early '90s, when they were leading the effort to kill the Clinton plan."
Potter began his trip from health care spokesperson to reform advocate while back home in Tennessee. Potter attended a "health care expedition," a makeshift health clinic set up at a fairgrounds, and he tells Bill Moyers, "It was absolutely stunning. When I walked through the fairground gates, I saw hundreds of people lined up, in the rain. It was raining that day. Lined up, waiting to get care, in animal stalls. Animal stalls."
Looking back over his long career, Potter sees an industry corrupted by Wall Street expectations and greed. According to Potter, insurers have every incentive to deny coverage — every dollar they don't pay out to a claim is a dollar they can add to their profits, and Wall Street investors demand they pay out less every year. Under these conditions, Potter says, "You don't think about individual people. You think about the numbers, and whether or not you're going to meet Wall Street's expectations."
You can read the complete transcript of the Moyers's interview with Wendell Potter here.
You can view Wendel Potter's congressional testimony online or read the text.
Bill Moyers interviews former health insurance industry executive Wendell Potter, who left the field after almost 20 years to become a health reform advocate. The following YouTube videos -- Via PBS -- originally aired on PBS, Fri., July 10, 2009
Part One:
Part Two: In this portion of the interview Potter talks about the insurance industry's strategies for discrediting Michael Moore:
Michael Moore's health care documentary 'Sicko' can be viewed online in its entirety here.(Hat tip to 'citisven' at Daily Kos.)
--Diane Sweet
The smoking gun comes in at 3:37 in the second video.. He describes industry efforts on Capitol Hill to threaten Democrats (The same tactics could be used on anyone, really) with opposition come election time, even to the point of funding a contender, if they don't do as they're told.
Healthcare has grown completely out of proportion with any index you care to compare it to. GDP, inflation, income, you name it.. When you hear democrats or Republicans talking about more subsidies for healthcare, these are the guys who are getting that money. They offer nothing in return.
There was also an interesting expose recently (In The Atlantic, I believe) about the health care monopolies and doctors who open their own imaging centers, surgeries and other businesses and then refer patients to them needlessly.. They claim it is for legal protection, but it is quite obviously for the purpose of double, triple and more billing.
Drugs are another monopoly which is protected to the hilt, while the DOJ putzes around with such "anti-trust" nonsense like bids to provide IPhone service. Anything relating to the REAL monopolies in healthcare and Insurance is completely ignored.
Bad as it is, what you're seeing here is merely a symptom of an over arching problem - Corporate America has simply bought our system of government, lock, stock and barrel. They own both parties. Their money and influence virtually guarantees that nothing changes at the top, regardless of who you vote for.
This is why both parties, and the President himself, support a form of Mitt Romney Care. Basically, it forces 40+ million new "customers" into the clutches of the Healthcare/Insurance lobby. Since insurance is all about spreading risk (In a nutshell: It's a good idea to insure 4 or 5 librarians for every sky diver) the lobby is TERRIFIED that changing demographics and their own boundless greed will leave them holding the bag on an ever aging population, and the young and poor won't be there to help them pay for it.
Their answer is to force them into the fold and force them to bear the cost of insuring retiring boomers.
To anyone who responds that the answer to this problem is a "public option" to re-introduce market forces to the industry(s). The reply is: Perhaps that will help. But the outcome is far from certain!
What you don't want, and what the lobby will shoot for in a Hail Mary situation, is a "public option" that is so gamed and manipulated as to actually DRIVE PATRONS INTO PRIVATE INSURANCE, and actually work FOR THEM.. As opposed to against them and their profits.
Please note that even President Obama slipped up and admitted that, at the current rate, there will be money for (so called) entitlements, but nothing else.
In reality, there is PLENTY OF MONEY.. The "Nothing else" you hear them refer to is the American empire and soft colonialism. The cost of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would have alleviated this problem significantly.. But they don't want that. They want to make you pay these costs instead, and dump the surplus into the general fund to be spent on more empire.
There's no problem here that can't be solved. No wild equation that is impossible to work through. Both of our political parties would simply prefer to spend money hand over fist on their favored monopolies and the Empire than spend it on us.
They are bought and paid for. That is all there is to it.
Great post, Jhoffa, thank-you.
Why thank you..
I am flattered!
*curtsey*
I will settle for nothing but single payer.
Money? Simple----you get it from online internet sales that are weaseling taxes from states.
Thank you Bill Moyers. He has been exposing those who work against the
public good for years.
Its now up to us to act. Create a shit storm. Make your opinion known by calling/by writing/by doing both/ to your senators and congressman today.
Sadly, Moore doesn't need anyone to "discredit" him. He accomplishes that handily himself. He's on the correct side of every issue, but he goes about it wrong, if you ask me. I wish there were a more professional advocate doing his work.
thinkbolt:
Nobody asked you. Does anybody EVER ask you?
"..he goes about it wrong.."? Now THERE'S some constructive criticism! What don't you like? Not enough dance numbers? No car chases? Humor too subtle? Dialogue contained too many multisyllabic words?
Too bad big pharm hasn't come up with a good pill for greed--the costs of some double blind tests are probably just prohibitive, eh?
@Ken #7
The 'Leave a Reply' bit at the end of the page that you felt the need to make use of, might as well be an invitation for his (thinkbolt's) and everyone else's thoughts.
I don't always disagree with what Moore's productions push either. While his abrasive approach and juvenile tactics don't phase me as a viewer (in fact they're mildly entertaining if I'm exhausted enough), plenty of other people that take documentary production much more seriously than him are affected by his work when their viewers look at their work with the jaundiced eye that Moore's editing and lies of omission (?) force people to adopt. He gets people riled up without going through the next step and informing them, something that sadly is becoming all too common in documentaries covering a variety of topics since Moore took to the scene.
Moore has been right about everything he's said, from GM, the war in Iraq and healthcare to the absurdity of the gun lobby. The same folks who dismiss Moore bought completely into Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld and Curve Ball and were completely wrong. They mimic the lobbyist's propaganda on every issue and castigate Moore for the "way" he delivers the facts. The comments by the CIGNA executive show the industry looks at patients and thinks..."Pet or meat?"
Patience #9
I understand what you're saying, but straight documentaries reach only very small audiences. There were several excellent documentaries opposing the Iraq war, for example, but it wasn't until Moore released "Fahrenheit 9/11" that the masses starting getting the message. Say what you like about his "style", but who else could have turned a movie about health care into a box office hit?
Moore's portrayal of the British health care system was laughable, i live in Britain and can tell you for a fact it was a gross distortion, he didn't mention anything about the hygiene of our hospitals, he doesn't mention that red tape which prevents many top medicines (such as herceptin) from reaching patients, he doesn't mention that when people need top health care they head straight to the US, why is that ? if the US health care system is so bad, how come people flock from all over the world to use it ? , no fo course, I'm sure their are some serious flaws in the US system, but I'm telling you right now, a universal NHS type of system is not all it's cracked up to be, and once you've got it you're stuck with it.
Ken
It's great that he's been able to bring dauntingly complicated topics to the masses, but I think that there are plenty of people that could do such without the chopped, out of context quotes & misleading manipulation of data that Moore depends on to get otherwise very important messages out. I'd go so far as to say that because Moore has shown that, in theory at least, a 'documentary' can sell, we'd all be better off and better informed if more people would pay attention to what some of his peers (many of whom could plausibly be credited with creating the concept of the documentary) are saying about his methods (not necessarily the people that criticize him personally) rather than waiting to see how he'll entertain us next.
I watch everything Moore produces (or prints), he does excellent work putting complicated concepts into 'bite-size' pieces, just the way we like them anymore (unfortunately). With each passing work though, I get stronger reminders that it's important to pay attention to what his detractors/targets have to say about the issue at hand. In this case (healthcare/Sicko) their motives may not have been pure, and Potter may have since validated what Moore said about the insurance industry, but such doesn't necessarily lend credence to the deeper theme which was Moore's vision for the future of American healthcare processes.
The danger in his production style is that the casual box-office viewer may feel fully informed and make decisions solely based on what is fed to them with the pop-corn and soda, while not recognizing that the value in such productions is ideally a triggered drive to investigate the topic further on their own.
It's almost as if people can't be troubled to think anymore, even more so when an important topic is gift-wrapped and dropped in their laps by the likes of Moore.
Ah, leave Mike alone. Sure, He´s populist, and over simplifies everything. But don´t forget. He isnt making movies for the average Raw story reader. He is reaching out to all of those middle-americans who dont spend half the day reading political commentary on-line. His "end justifies the means" approach IS obnoxious no me,
but he isnt trying to reach me. He is going for average working class, bible belt, red blooded american who wouldnt otherwise be savvy, and I see no harm in that.
We're only talking about Sicko right?
What FACTS did he exaggerate in Sicko? He may have used a broad brush in his other movies, but he was much more professional in Sicko.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta tried to debunk him on national TV, but was outed for misquoting Moore. Even some of his conservative critics in congress thought Sicko was well done.
Let's not talk about ALL of his movies, because this one has repeatedly been applauded for giving an accurate depiction.
Rothchild's/CIA MK Ultra Victim
I know a Michael Moore,,I shop at his Ma & Pa store all most everyday..
It's to bad his sister is mentally handicapped,,
Just like the Billionaire they used in the script on the Yahoo Stock Market message board,,His daughter is mentally handicapped also...
I think we need the assistance of the Zinki/Zinke guys...
I'm a little peeved that this has been going on since 1928-1929....
So we used the song,,"Knock 3 times on the ceiling if you want me,etc"
Then when we disagreed, the CIA would say,,"I don't think so AL",,this is from the tv series,,
"I don't think so AL" is also a cliche I have always said..
It appears we have 2 locations of MK ULTRA....
My health insurance agent was bemoaning the possible onset of public health care as I tried to get him to explain the 30 percent cost increase in my small group plan premiums. He waxed poetic about how being an agent in the health care industry enabled him to send his kids to fine private universities, afford a second home in upper Wisconsin and drive a new Mercedes Benz. I said, great, but why did my insurance go from $1350/mo. to $1750/mo in one year? He said his daughter was going to join his business, but feared public, government run insurance would diminish the earning potential of his daughter's new career and force them to sell homeowners or auto insurance, which was much more work intensive. I again said that a 30 percent increase in premiums was insane considering we made no claims other than routine office visits and some prescriptions. He could not answer my question, but was sad he would make less money if there was a Public Plan. Exasperated, I told him to shove his premiums up his ass and went to a creepy, catastrophic insurance plan through Mega Life, which was not ideal, with very high deductibles, but one third the cost. It will, hopefully, cover us if there comes a time someone in the family gets cancer or heart disease. However, it is far from ideal and will probably wipe us out financially if something bad happens because no insurance company is honest and will find cause to not pay claims, especially for high-cost surgeries and long hospital stays. We need to tell our Representitives in Congress that as citizens of the United States, we deserve Public, tax paid health care a la France, UK, Canada, Germany, etc. Time to stop the corporate greed that is wiping out the middle class, screwing the poor and only benefitting the wealthiest 1 percent.
Anders wrote
Anders, are you a Private Health Care Industry "plant"? Are you a lobbyist for Big Pharma? If not, you sure sound like it. You bring up the Health Care/Big Pharma Industrial Complex talking points, but have no data to back them up. I have friends in the UK and France. They love their health care and they are Upper Middle-class executive types. Nothing is perfect, but what we have in the US is greed-driven, big money grabbing corporate shit. It is not health care, but care avoidance-risk avoidance and these corporate executives are pulling down obscene piles of money off the backs of average Americans. We are being screwed by these guys, don't you see? Our health must not be in the hands of MBA bean counters any longer.
I worked for a major insurance company. I know how they misrepresent their case when they are opposed to something. Remember how adament they were about medical insurance in the 50s and 60s? They seem to think we have for-
gotten those misrepresentations. If we have, so much rhe worst for our own
safety and benefit. They simply recycle over and over again the same misinfor-
mation for their own benefit trusting that the public is still stupid. And if we are
we will lose another battle for our own welfare!
My youngest son lives in Croatia, part of the defucnt old Yugoslavia. He and his lovely Croatian wife pay the equivalent of about $50 a month for very good public health insurance. In Croatia, everyone has health insurance through the government. All conditions and medicines are covered. Italy is the same. My son and his wife were visiting friends in Italy when son's ear drum was broken. He had a very fine surgeon repair it in an Italian hospital. His cost, because he was not an Italian citizen? Roughly $35 American. That was it. $35 for the emergency room visit and a top ear surgeon to fix his ear. If European countries can do this, there is absolutely NO excuse as to why the same can not be accomplished in this country. Taxes are roughly the equivalent there (Croatia) as here, too. Go figure.
PS
I have written to my federal representatives about single payer or a government "option" and Republican Phil Gingrey sent back his reply, "Under no circumstances will I support a public option". Obviously this millionaire former "doctor" has never had an instance in which his "public plan" hasn't worked for him. I simply cannot understand the so-called logic of elitists like Gingrey who have a government paid form of health insurance working so hard to deny the general public of a plan as good as or at least similar to his own. My grandmother worked for the Treasury Dept. for 40 years and had excellent health insurance through the government plan provided to federal employees. I wouldn't mind having something like that, either. She paid a premium (Gingrey does not, his is free to him), but it was affordable and covered her and her husband admirably through their lives. It was government run and worked just fine.
america is fucking evil.
look how they/we treat the vulnerable,
the needy. we let them die under the bridge,
or in prison, or in a drunk driving accident,
or suicide. the greed merchants gather untold
monies, while the poor and desperate die in the streets,
or become cop-fodder.
obama's in there right now,
but he MUST prosecute the american wrong
done before him. you first start killing your own
people, and realize it's "legal," then you go off
and start killing other people in other countries
for the same lies you told while killing your own people.
once you realize there is no sheriff in town,
you start torturing people, and raping them in foreign prisons.
you realize: nothing matters.
with y our corporations and never ending money,
no one, and nobody, will ever be able to touch you.
"justice" is only in quotation marks, and corporations
hold the shift key and the quotation mark.
you can do ANYTHING, ANYWHERE.
such was bush. such was cheney.
if obama wants any shift from business as usual,
he must go after bush, cheney, their henchmen,
and corporate america.
these bastards are worse than idi amin -
they just operate in better suits.
@ Anders.
This argument has been raised before. yes, WEALTHY people flock to the US system. It's great if you have a lot of money. For everyone else it sucks. Are you saying that you just missed the fact that what the issue is about is AFFORDABLE (E.G. sans international flights) healthcare?
And no you're not stuck with it. There are always forces that want to privatize. If there was something that the people wanted privatized, anywhere, for anything, it would be done; there's lots of people to do it. But people don't want it.
Do you really think the UK healthcare system would improve if it were privatized? For everyone? Really?
England is not exactly a socialist utopia. No big surprise of there's problems with your healthcare system. In Canada there are problems too but we don't have people going untreated for serious illnesses because they don't have any money.
"If the US health care system is so bad, how come people flock from all over the world to use it ? "
The "people" you speak of, Anders, are the wealthy from all over. NATURALLY they come to the US because if you've got unlimited money, there is nothing like the good old USA to provide things like open heart surgery, intestinal bypasses, cosmetic surgery, implanted insulin pumps and other exotic and high-tech treatments that may not be available in poorer or less developed nations. But it is CERTAINLY not the place folks flock to for garden-variety everyday health care for ordinary working folks! As a matter of fact, that sort of "care" has become virtually nonexistent.
How much do you really know about American health "care"? I put that in quotes because here is what a typical plan looks like for those unfortunates who have to buy their own "insurance:" In the typical plan, your deductible is about $1000 PER PERSON, PER YEAR. Which means that even with hefty monthly premiums running into hundreds of dollars per person, your health care does not even begin to kick in until you've spent $1,000 out of pocket (for EACH covered individual). Then, the reimbursement rate is only 80%. The patient is stuck paying the rest. Ant it goes without saying that if God forbid the worst happens and you get really, really sick (like cancer or heart disease), there's nothing to prevent the "insurance" company from kicking you out of the plan altogether. Then just try getting coverage when you're already sick. Impossible.
So before you lecture us ungrateful Americans on what a great deal we have here, learn a few facts.
Moore creates films that start and end like a scientific equation. He puts forth a hypothesis and then proves it. For people that don't like science, it is easy to look at any one part and take it out of context as their argument. But when taken as a whole, you can see that the entire piece is proof of the theory set forth at the beginning. Truth is a potent indicator of how accurate his films are.
The only people that argue against them have an axe to grind, don't they?
They dropped us.
My wife of 31 years and I, both USAF veterans, have MS. We both had insurance through her employer until she joined me in the ranks of those to disabled to work.
We had long term care through her insurance from her job but they refused to honor it claiming MS isn't disabling. Even our doctor couldn't get them to change their position.
We slipped to a low rung on the ladder.
So instead of CIGNA shouldering their commitment the government is forced to do it for them through Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Insurance should have accepted their burden rather than push it on to the taxpayer.
Some industry people are here, and we all know it.
Nobody--repeat: NOBODY--gets offensive about Michael Moore unless their noses are being tweaked by him, unless he is hurting their vested interests in some way.
It is a pretty safe bet that we all know somebody who lost everything to illness, after they lost their good health in the United States. The system is designed to take all of your cash upfront, followed by everything you own. The system preys on your fear of death.
The system is designed to take your life's savings and investments when you grow old. That way, instead of handing down your wealth to your loved ones, your wealth is transferred to corporations: assisted-care facilities, hospitals, and insurance companies.
Make no mistake: We see through you jackasses who claim to know how terrible healthcare reform would be for the United States...and what a monster you make Michael Moore out to be. Screw all of you.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the karma these scumbags are building for themselves hits them before healthcare reform occurs.
I would really like to know who thought insurance would save us money.You don't put one industry in charge of another and expect it to get cheaper.It just does not work that way.I can tell you from experience,Iwas doing well getting my own healthcare and then they changed to a HMO type prograam and I started getting all my meds changed to cheaper genarics and my health has went south ever since and the insurance continues to rise with less returns.The insurance industry is beholden to thier investors,not the patients,so guess who gets the short end.Under the plan for insurance to handle your heath plan what used to cost $100.00 now costs $900.00
Mr. Potter is a true American and patriot to be recognized.
It's refreshing to know there are good, honest corporate executives with a conscience and integrity for fairness and respect for human life.
It's just too bad the mainstream doesn't sensationalize his story and that poor Americans are being treated in animal stalls at a fairgrounds setting.
When this video is viewed overseas, our country will continue to lose status on the world stage. Besides being a greedy, dishonest, torturing, warring bully and international troublemaker –– American leadership allows neglect of the health and welfare of its own families and children.
Corporations and powerful lobbies have a stronghold on the integrity of America. Their greed and tactless insensitivity for the health, education, success and welfare of American families and children will eventually destroy this country––if it hasn't already.
Wall street
Military industrial complex
Multi-national corporations
Health insurance pharma complex
Single-payer is STILL off the table...
DNC & RNC have BOTH sold out the country in order to enrich themselves.
Gravel Kucinich Paul Nader
McKinney Ventura too
perotcharts.com
Five veterans
The Fed
AIPAC
9/11
I wonder if Michael Moore, or the film investors, have a basis for legal action. They could argue that CIGNA (and possibly other conspirators ) by disseminating false information harmed their business. I am not a lawyer...
I also worked for CIGNA only because they bought another, more ethical, group health insurance company called EQUICOR (The Equitable) in the early 1990s. They lied to us about the value of the benefits and salaries they offered us in the merger; they had an underwriting policy of adding 35%/year to all group health insurance plans regardless of policyholder claims. These increases paid for lavish salaries for account reps and big executives while everyone else was paid at the low end of the scale for insurance employees.
They were unethical then and still are now. The only reason health insurance exists is to skim profits off the sick. This in itself is unethical. When will Americans wake up and demand what the rest of the world already has, single-payer accessible & affordable health care? When ordinary people stick up for private insurance, they reveal either the poverty of their education (supporting something that will eventually bankrupt them) or their own vested interest in making a profit from the sick.
End health insurance, go for single payer and costs will come in line accordingly. Problem is both Dems & Repugs have been bought and sold by America's most powerful lobby, insurance companies. Let's all put them out of business forever!
we must take money out of politics.
we must purge all those in government that
pretend the pentagon and
our grossly oversized military is for defense
rather then a business to make a lot of money.
Rothchild's/CIA MK Ultra Victim under Protective Custody..
Doctors and people of science,,
The hardest thing about using MK Ultra and working to harm MANY,is the hiding,,
MK Ultra is ILLEGAL,,harming people is ILLEGAL,so we have to work on cover-to harm so many...
We can even use our power to influence government to legislate for our cover..
So the EVIL decided to use all prescription drugs...
To have many side effects added to a prescription to provide them with the opportunity to INJURY<HARM MANY...
As I said, we may even have gotten the government to pass this as an excuse,,
That the LAW makes us list 1000 side effects for every drug...
When the consumer,people I meet,my neighbors say,,
"Why do the commercials that sell drugs come off like there NOT TRYING TO SELL THE DRUG<<SCARE THE CUSTOMER,,,?"
I think our research on medicines side effects will have to be re-valuated..
I think we will notice a very measurable increase of Americans health getting better..
I think many of these side effects were jumped on as an excuse to harm people.
At the same time we will notice that some in the drug cartel with there partners in crime,the US government, covered-up serious side effects...
Autism comes to mind,,
Hey,hey,hey,It's fat Albert...
WOW.
Some very thoughtful responses to this story. However, I thought the myth that 'People flock to the USA for health Care' was dead & gone (pun unintentional) a generation ago. The ONLY people who 'flock to the USA' are getting Heath Care which 99.5% of the US population will NEVER see.
One thing I don't hear is how many, many Americans are flocking to India and South America for health care because they cannot afford it in the US. "Anders" (paid troll) and his ilk continue to try and disinform about other countries health care systems. No system is perfect, but very few are worse than ours. The US has the worst health care outcomes of any industrialized nation, that is a fact that anyone can easily find. Our system is corrupt and broken, beyond repair, I fear. I have written to both my Senators (neanderthal republicans as I am in Georgia) and my democratic congressman, more than once. The responses I receive lead me to believe that we will have no meaningful reform.
Fuck the greedy of this world. On the top of the list, insurance companies.
I am so discouraged by the number of fucking idiots who defend the status quo.
I am afraid that this country is too far gone to be revived.
The world needs a major cleansing.
The robber class needs to be eradicated.
22 / 29 / 32 i really dig your posts. keep tellin' it.
oh, and Jhoffa_ at 1 too. brilliant
We Canadians would never give up our government run health care system, but, unfortunately, a minority of Canadians are dead set against it, largely for political reasons, and they never pass up a chance to weaken and whittle it away. The system is administered by the provinces, so that gives the opponents an opportunity, when in power, to discredit the system by undermining its effectiveness. As a result, there is a never ending debate about what we must do to fix the system, and private alternatives are always touted as the answer. Whatever substantive improvements come from the present debate in the USA they will, in the end, only be as good as your determination to keep them.
I watched this on Friday night. he made a comment at one point about the GOP talking point 'do you want a bureaucrat telling your doctor what to do?' and countering thsat meme with the fact that Wall St. is currently controlling your health care.
Wall St.!
(loosely paraphrased and apologies if this has been commented on)
Three cheers for Bill Moyers.
Tiel
I think that's the part that gets lost on so many people. A lot of people do come here for specialized care not available elsewhere, but that certainly doesn't make it easily or even feasibly available for those already here. I just finished paying the last $10k of a $25k bill accrued from three days in the ICU last year that my 'good' 'comprehensive' insurance would barely touch. Had to drop it in order afford the payments on the bill (since I wasn't working much for a while afterward). I've got a lesser insurance plan since then, but attached it to an HSA and put the difference in the premiums into that now. The $25k lesson learned was that if I'm going to have to mostly pay out of pocket anyways, I don't want to give anymore than I have to to an insurer. The lesson that lead me to the original insurance plan was that the VA offers 'care' that most are better off without, so I'm skeptical of anything the govt will try to administer on a larger scale.
@Patience
You said "With each passing work though, I get stronger reminders that it's important to pay attention to what his detractors/targets have to say about the issue at hand. In this case (healthcare/Sicko) their motives may not have been pure, and Potter may have since validated what Moore said about the insurance industry, but such doesn't necessarily lend credence to the deeper theme which was Moore's vision for the future of American healthcare processes."
You really sound like someone invested in the current system.
And can you please expound on your implied criticism of Michael Moore's "deeper theme", such that it lacks "credence"?
truthops2010
You must have missed my #40 post, in a way I've heavily invested in this current system, just not in anyway that I'll benefit from in the future, which is a large part of why I would like to see the current system change.
As far as my criticism of Moore regarding this particular movie, more-so in interviews about it, but somewhat in the movie as well, he makes it sound like we can just adopt the Canadian system (or French or UK system etc.,). That's hugely misleading to viewers and sets them up to reject changes that might actually work well here, but because another country he fauns over may not have done it first it, they'll believe they're being scammed or short-changed. For example he does nothing to address how Canadian style Rx plans can't be adopted here unless we want the pharma co's to leave the country, and instead makes it sound like because we haven't adopted such a system, that we are getting ripped off. We are getting ripped off on Rx prices, but for completely different reasons and Canada can actually share a good portion of that blame (you didn't know we effectively subsidize Canadian drug prices at the greater expense of our own?).
Moore is great at getting people more interested in problems that need to be addressed, but he's awful at providing the tools (or incentive) necessary to adequately deal with them in a smart manner. Just because he's good at pointing out problems, doesn't mean his chosen solutions are the best at addressing or correcting them, but that notion seems lost on his fans, I think mostly because they're as often interested in being entertained as being informed.
All of us need to work together to throw this leach off our backs.
"Moore is great at getting people more interested in problems that need to be addressed, but he's awful at providing the tools (or incentive) necessary to adequately deal with them in a smart manner."
I suggest you get off your ass and work on the solution yourself, like I do.
It took Moore to shove the problem in your face. Without him, it wouldn't have happened.
You sound like a vested-interest shill, so knock off the blame-crap and focus on a solution.
Patients, I appreciate your thoughtful post. However, exactly what do you expect Michael Moore to do, as per providing tools? Incentive? Had Sicko not been effectively blocked from greater distribution, perhaps the incentive that he hoped to convey via giving ordinary Americans the chance to get their stories out, might have well evoked more "incentive", as per impact on bigger audience. "Just because he is good at pointing out problems" doesn't mean that he is then expected to provide the solutions, which seems to be lost on many of Michael Moore's critics, simply because I think they are often more interested in a hero emerging with super duper powers, like a God who not only points out the problem, but has the master plan, and then the power to make it all materialize. I just find it odd, that you spend this much time on a forum, being critical of Michael Moore, when the much bigger target to be critical of, is this insane "Sicko" system where a person can lose absolutely everything just because they get sick. As per your post #40, where you equate VA administered health care with an expanded Medicare single payer type system. I'm much more skeptical of the continuation of corporate administered health care, where the money spent by patients toward profits and administration costs dwarf the percentage of administrative costs of a larger scale system, i.e. expansion of single payer Medicare.
I think that you assume too much when you assert that people who aren't able to get health care – because of pre-existing conditions or poverty for instance – would be "better off without" even VA equivalent " 'care' ".
As per those pesky Canadians being subsidized by us. I just love the pretzel logic there. Big powerful Pharma, jacks up the price on Americans, and then points to other markets where they cant jack up the prices, and then propagandizes to those Americans who would listen to their propaganda, that it is the fault of those other markets for not allowing the insane profits.
Charmed
Do you have some kind of disability that prevents you from comprehending typed words?
Moore certainly wasn't needed to shove any problem in my face, the healthcare problems in this country did that on their own to me without any assistance required by him, I'm sure such is true for most people.
Vested-interest shill? Yeah, I have a vested-interest in my health. Somebody has to. The govt & insurance companies certainly don't.
Blame who? I don't blame Moore for our healthcare problems, I blame him in part for preventing open and honest discourse on a solution, so I focus on calling out the faults in his methods.
Sounds like you're more interested in blindly following the blabbering one than taking a hard look at what changes need to be made. Nothing's free. Not even this post you just read.
Patience, you are a shill in some way. Your false indignation is laughable. I'm glad I hit a nerve with you.
Your focus on Michael Moore is a distraction. You need to come clean as to why you are focusing on Moore. You have a bone to pick, and you're not honest enough to reveal the real reasons behind it.
Like I said: If you have solution, get off your ass and do something about it. Reveal it right here, keyboard warrior.
truthops2010
I certainly wouldn't expect a producer to come up with a solution to the problem they are showing in a film, but in Moore's case, he seems to offer them, hence my comments. My criticism doesn't lay with his doing so, but that too many people seem to stop with that as opposed to working through the details on their own (or on forums such as this) to make sure that a solution is workable and that the best solution gets the traction.
I may not be making it clear enough, but my biggest criticisms are not of Moore, but of the people that view his work and feel that they have done their part just by viewing and maybe being troubled to make a little fuss. I understand that not all, maybe not even most, of his viewers fit that description, but seemingly too many do as evidenced by those (see charmed) that get apoplectic when someone mildly or even indirectly criticizes anything related to what Moore does.
In regards to the VA bit, my concern lies with making sure that the same mistakes still being made in that system aren't carried over to whatever the govt adopts as an expansion to the general public. That skepticism helps me focus on making sure that we iron out as many problems as we can before adopting any drastic changes. What's the line about an ounce of prevention being better than a pound of the cure? I think that logic applies to any major undertaking, like healthcare. I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of anyone getting whatever healthcare they can, even VA style 'care' if that's all they can get, but I used the example to show why I had originally sought private insurance on my own, and why I think we need to do better by the people that would be limited to such care by creating better solutions. My first foray into private healthcare post-Army, wasn't exactly a shining example of goodwill (or good care) in the current private system, needless to say, I'm no fan of, and every bit as critical of the current private system as I am of the VA option that I (admittedly) had the choice of not using.
The Rx/Canadian thing is more involved than I have time to get into at just this moment, but I'm reasonably certain this thread won't be disappearing anytime soon. For a start though, Canada's health authority (don't know the name off the top of my head, but whoever it is that 'bargains' with the drug makers on the pricing) has since their current programs inception, essentially told drug makers that if they don't sell at the price demanded, Canada may just refuse to recognize our patent and trade laws and treaties and copy and produce the drugs themselves. That's a large part of the reason why so many drugs available here, aren't in Canada. They're basically saying sell it at X price or we'll just steal it. That's not to say that pharma is being completely honest in all of their stated reasons for the high cost of drugs here, but it's certainly not just a matter of market manipulation by pharma alone that's behind it.
Charmed
Huh? Seriously, do you just read every tenth word or something?
First it was get off my ass and do something about finding a solution, and now it's get off my ass and do something only IF I have a solution? I'd like to try to follow your attempt at logic here, but unless I know what your condition is or what drugs you're on, I'm not sure I can follow the inconsistencies.
Just in case you forgot, Michael Moore is kind of a major part of the story here, so mentioning him is hardly a distraction.
popurls.com // popular today...
story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com...
Wow.. This is certainly enlightening.
Ya know, the more time I spend around this place, the more that I am struck by the similarities between left and right wing orthodoxy, and the zealotry of their defenders. The party partisans obviously consider their leaders to be infallible. As though every word they speak is somehow sacred.
It's really something. I mean, even the Catholics (A group renown for their rigorous dogma) draw a line between their Pope expressing an opinion, which is obviously open to personal interpretation, and speaking with unquestionable authority.. Or ex-cathedra, if you prefer.
It is little wonder that the ranks of the Independents are swelling.. Cause you people are fucking nuts!
When she was two years old we took our daughter to the Nevada County hospital in Sacramento County California late one night for an elevated temperature. It was around 104 degrees. Here's the superior American treatment we got. There was NO ONE else in the waiting room. Yet they kept us sitting there while doctors and aides, coffee cups in hand, laughed and joked behind the counter. Occasionally someone would quickly poke a head around a corner to take a peek at us then would continue milling around and laughing. So there we were watching revolting reruns of Jerry Springer. I asked a few times why they couldn't see us as our daughter had a high temperature and there was no one else waiting. The reply of the lady behind the counter was "we'll get to you, just sit down". We sat there for probably two hours waiting and getting angrier.
Finally they called us in. However in the doctor's room they again made us wait, this time about another 1/2 hour. I was good and mad by this time. When a doctor finally came in he spent all of three minutes with us then walked out. Then came in a nurse who gave our daughter some Ibuprofen. That's it.
When we got the bill we were appalled. $458.00 plus for Ibuprofen. So don't talk to me about the superior American health care system.
The way I look at it now is we are paying taxes for services. Why the f--k is our money going to fund idiotic wars??? Three TRILLION dollars for Iraq and Afganistan! It's OUR money after all, WE should have the right to have some say where it goes. So cut out the politicians pet projects.
In the past several years I have learned a lot about how corporate America operates and sees the average citizen. All they show is contempt for us, it's demonstrated in the million and one ways they have found to screw us over.
New law, if we the citizens are going to be taxed WE are going to decide where our money is spent.
"Ya know, the more time I spend around this place, the more that I am struck by the similarities between left and right wing orthodoxy, and the zealotry of their defenders."
Well, then, why don't you just go away, Mr. Centrist And Proud Of It? And take your pharma friend, Patience, with you.
Raw Story is a left-leaning organization. Oh, that's right: You know this, and it's just killing you.
Patience Friend of Big Pharma, if you shut up for about 40 minutes and watched Bill Moyers' interview with Wendell Potter, you would know that Michael Moore was the topic for mere seconds. The focus was CIGNA and the corrupt insurance industry and its practices. Did you miss everything except the Michael Moore snippet? That's telling.
You can blather on and on and on all you want, but you still stink of propaganda.
The Health Insurance Industry and their lobby operate as a terrorist/mafia organization, that is by terrorizing and exporting, hence they should be treated as such. Let's face it, technically they are responsible for more American deaths every year than Al Qaeda for the whole time of its existence.
A very interesting story, but even better comments. Thank you for this site and thank you for the discussion.
I live and work in the UK. I'm not wealthy by any means. For what it's worth, here's my opinion.
Ignore "Anders". The UK National Health Service is something most brits are very proud of. It's not perfect - there are waiting lists, though they've fallen a long way in recent years. And if, god forbid, you need serious and expensive healthcare such as chemotherapy for Cancer, or a heart bypass operation, it's there.
It's a publicly funded service. We pay something called National Insurance which covers the NHS, our state Pension, and Income Support should we be out of work. So in essence it's NOT free. A state run service has the power to set prices and wages so costs can be controlled. Here, Doctors and Nurses and mainly government employees - but Opticians and Dentists are not. Of course the funding is not unlimited. Sadly everything has to be weighed and measured and rationed so it comes down to whether an extra two years of life is worth the cost of the medication, for example.
In a perfect world there would be no cost to lifespan ratio. There would be no big pharma companies, who fund the research in exchange for patent-protected profit. But the only other alternative to this form of Capitalism would be Socialism - or god help us, Communism. The state would run research and development, and medicine would be close to cost price. At the moment we have to wait for patents to expire in order to create generic medicines. The NHS is a good balance. I for one would gladly pay more taxes to fund it even more.
We have the same problems as the rest of the world - an ageing population with a greater lifespan (though it's strange to call that a "problem"). Sorry, Americans, but you *REALLY* need to care for your folk. You have a much greater population than us, and therefore a massively richer country. Defence, Social Security, and Health are usually the greatest costs to a nation, but you seem to have given away the health to private companies.
The power is with the people. If you speak, your leaders WILL listen. Being a slave to Capitalism when it comes to healthcare is so wrong. Letting the market set the price may work for other industries, but not Health. I'd argue that ALL essential services should be state run, such as utilities (water, power, etc) but that's beyond this already overlong comment
Anyway - back to the main discussion... I love More's documentaries. As mentioned elsewhere he is deliberately populist in order to reach a wider demographic. He may be abrasive, and his humour may be hit and miss (personally, it's a hit) but he gets the job done. Thank god for freedom of speech! Make this man a national hero, he deserves it. And get rid of your guns...
By the way, here in Wales we don't even pay for prescriptions. Even all Drugs are free, from basic painkillers all the way up to anti-depressants and expensive continuing courses of medicinee for HIV, Cancer, and the rest.
"Raw Story is a left-leaning organization. Oh, that's right: You know this.."
Actually, I don't..
I simply took them at their word when they claimed to be an "alternative news" source.
See the main page? It says: "Tip us off to alternative news.."
It doesn't say "Left-leaning" "liberal" or "democrat" news. Further, they don't seem to impose any sort of liberal litmus test upon their patrons.
The reason issues like these never seem to get resolved is that corporations, especially from Ronald Reagan's time on learned that it's cheaper to hire professional liars, what I call "liars for hire" to distort the facts then to be caught red-handed with their hand in the public's pocket and have to give back some of their loot.
So they've hired "think tanks" like Heritage, CEI and AEI, which are paid handsomely to stall or kill legislation by lobbying and paying off politicians and by making the public think that these mega corporations are really just good guys who only have our best interests at heart. Creat doubt and apathy, anything to keep the loot rolling in. Big Medicine is just one example. A couple of others are Big Oil which has done everything it can to obfuscate the facts and kill any meaningful climate change legislation and Big Ag with companies like Monsanto determined to ram their genetically engineered crops down the the throat of the world, and make sure we are all getting more than our share of herbicides and pesticides in our food while squeezing organic out.
No not all corporations are like this but most are IMO. After seeing what big business has done in the past 30 years I am ALL for government run "programs". Especially in any area that is a necessity for life. Areas like health care, food, energy and insurance. These are the areas that corporate thieves like to infest because it's there, in the necessities - things that we all have to have that they think they can best make their fattest profits. The free market is fine for lots of things but to put it simply, necessities should NOT be subject to market forces.
By the way, I have no health insurance, haven't had any for almost 15 years. What I had briefly before that was pathetic, with deductbles SO high and services so limited I might as well just pay for everything out of pocket. No matter what the "health" industry wants people to think the system is broken.
One last thing. I hold Big Business and the corrupt to the core Republicans (and to a lesser degree Democrats) that wholeheartedly support them personally responsible for much of the anger, cynicism and low morale that permeates US society. Your kind is the best argument for Socialism I can think of.
Patience
"For a start though, Canada's health authority (don't know the name off the top of my head, but whoever it is that 'bargains' with the drug makers on the pricing) has since their current programs inception, essentially told drug makers that if they don't sell at the price demanded, Canada may just refuse to recognize our patent and trade laws and treaties and copy and produce the drugs themselves. That's a large part of the reason why so many drugs available here, aren't in Canada. They're basically saying sell it at X price or we'll just steal it. That's not to say that pharma is being completely honest in all of their stated reasons for the high cost of drugs here, but it's certainly not just a matter of market manipulation by pharma alone that's behind it."
In Canada we say, 'Make shit up much?" You are the biggest bullshitter I have encountered in some time. Wow.
Number one reason for bankruptcy in the USA. Hospital bills.
It's not a big deal until you or one of your family members comes down with something serious. Then you will care...
reality
Indeed, and it's only a matter of time before an individual in later years of life has to declare bankrupcy when faced with a life-threatening situation.
Hmmm
"The reason issues like these never seem to get resolved is that corporations, especially from Ronald Reagan's time on learned that it's cheaper to hire professional liars, what I call "liars for hire" to distort the facts then to be caught red-handed with their hand in the public's pocket and have to give back some of their loot."
Yes, it's an age of psy warfare being waged on the US citizenry. It's sickening to behold and reminiscent of Stalin.
[...] The Raw Story » Video: Insurance lobby’s secret plan to attack ‘Sicko’ and Michael Moorerawstory.com [...]
Thank you to Bill Moyers and PBS for the enlightening and essential show. SINGLE-PAYER IS THE ONLY ETHICAL AND FINANCIAL SOLUTION:
New study shows single-payer would be major stimulus for the us economy:
** 2.6 Million New Jobs,
** $317 Billion in Business Revenue,
** $100 Billion in Wages, and
** $44 Billion New Tax Revenues
Here’s the study: http://www.calnurses.org/research/pdfs/ihsp_sp_economic_study_2009.pdf
How to pay for single payer reform: HR676 - public financing and private delivery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxi7DnCH3zk
What can Americans do in the face of the corrupt, profit-driven, rich insurance industry that places profits before Americans’ health and lives? One idea -- if the single payer bills – HR 676 and S 703 are scored by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), it will be clear that single payer is the only solution.
ACTION PLAN:
1. Contact Representative Conyers and his legislative aide, Joel Segal, and ask that Rep. Conyers request that HR 676 is scored by the Congressional Budget Office. Conyers’ contact information:
Phone: 202-225-5126
FAX: 202-225-0072
Email: john.conyers@mail.house.gov
Also email Joel Segal, Conyers’ health care aide: joel.segal@mail.house.gov
2. Contact your Representative and Senators with the same request: that the congressional budget office score the single payer plans (it will become quickly clear that Single Payer is the only financially viable option). You can find your legislators’ contact information here: http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml
3. ASK President Obama to support Single Payer reform and to look at the billions in savings that would occur with Single Payer reform. Ask him to insist that the Congressional Budget Office evaluate the finances of the Single Payer plans. People are dying because of our current healthcare system. Single payer reform is a human right!
COMMENT HERE: http://www.healthreform.gov/contact/index.html
AND HERE: http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact
CALL AND FAX: Phone: Comments: 202-456-1111; Switchboard: 202-456-1414; FAX: 202-456-2461
4. And ask President Obama, your Senators, and your Representative to watch this show, Bill Moyer’s Journal, at: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
4. Attend the Single Payer Rally and Lobby Day in Washington, DC on July 30th. More information here: http://www.healthcare-now.org/campaigns/single-payer-rally/
Anders is nothing but an insurance corp. defender spewing out GOP polster Frank Luntz talking point.......also spewed out by all the gop politicians on the floor......watching the bill moyers video is proof of that. I know folks in all these other mentioned countries who think we are fools for settling for the profit/greedy system we have in this country. It's the 21st century...time for the us health care system to catch up to other humane countries......Health care is a Right.
jbrantow
Greetings from Canada. You are no dummie and, yes, health care is a basc human right. Everyone pays to maintain the nation, whether through sales taxes, income taxes, what have you. Everyone deserves and has a right to access to health care in return for that contribution.
Stuart
"By the way, here in Wales we don't even pay for prescriptions. Even all Drugs are free, from basic painkillers all the way up to anti-depressants and expensive continuing courses of medicinee for HIV, Cancer, and the rest."
How would you assess your level of income tax? I would think this would be an important question for tax-fearing Americans. In Canada, a salary earner earning in the $50,000 bracket would pay total deductions of about $11,000.00 per year or about 21% but is guaranteed unlimited health care with no pre-authorization or any limitations whatsoever. These deductions include unemployment insurance and Canada Pension Plan as well as a couple of peripheral deductions. Some of these dollars are recoupable at tax time, depending on some various factors.
Too bad the industry didn't know just what an absolute moron Moore is. They could have saved a bundle. Unfortunately, a story or an endorsement by Bill Moyers lessens the credibility of any event. I'd check to see if the sun still rose in the morning if he did a story on it. Should you ever get a chance talk to someone from Canada other than the talking heads promoted by the politicians or the shills that are in here attempting to tell you how great the Canadian system is. Remember access to a list for health care in no way guarantees you actually get the care. You'll save tons of money because (1) it will eventually be illegal to pay a doctor for private care and (2) doctors won't be accepting new patients so you'll likely die before you get to spend your money on a doctor.
Just one more point from a Brit. We have the NHS to provide the necessary health care and it is MORE than adequate and provides way more service than it was originally intended to. Someone (NICE) has to make the decisions of what to spend the limited budget on and they do pretty well at a difficult job.
What doesn't get mentioned is that, unlike Canada it seems, we do have a choice and can opt to pay for private healthcare too through services like Bupa (Bupa.co.uk).
This seems to me to be the best situation.
Bill
Some twit says: "Too bad the industry didn't know just what an absolute moron Moore is. They could have saved a bundle. Unfortunately, a story or an endorsement by Bill Moyers lessens the credibility of any event. I'd check to see if the sun still rose in the morning if he did a story on it. Should you ever get a chance talk to someone from Canada other than the talking heads promoted by the politicians or the shills that are in here attempting to tell you how great the Canadian system is. Remember access to a list for health care in no way guarantees you actually get the care. You'll save tons of money because (1) it will eventually be illegal to pay a doctor for private care and (2) doctors won't be accepting new patients so you'll likely die before you get to spend your money on a doctor."
Thanks for the post. It amply displays your outright ignorance and woefully uninformed bias. You clearly don't know shit.
Oh, and guess what, asshole. You are 'talking to someone from Canada' who has benefited from public health care since it was implemented nationally in 1966.
Guess what? You are not only wrong, you are entirely wrong and not only that, but on every single count. I have not seen a shortage of doctors or doctors no longer accepting new patients in 43 years. When does that begin to take effect, in 1,000 years?
But I already mentioned you don't know shit, didn't I? Who is the lying shill now?
Cheers
Proudly progressive Canadian with decent health coverage.
marthamitchell2 #29,
Take it easy Martha. Your country can not lose more status. America and Israel is already the world's most hated countries.
You also have to pay health care for all injured after all your war of aggression all over the world!
Just wait for the count ...
doctors haven't always gotten into it for the money. that's a big lie & agenda furthered by american healthcare, and they've got the american public thinking that every country operates under the same awful principles.
northwestwoods
Somehow, I'm not surprised that you wouldn't be familiar with that little bit of trade knowledge. Even I wasn't familiar with the 'agreements' (govt sponsored threats) until informed of such while visiting a client (a Canadian MD) in Victoria a couple of years ago. Mere nationality does little to show familiarity with a given country's trade agreements.
You're not the biggest bullshitter I've come across even today, there's plenty others here vying for that title.
Many years ago I spent a year in Paris as a teenager, got mono and was treated several times without cost. Years later I hosted a French girl when my kids were teenagers. She came down with a serious ear infection for which I took her to my doctor. It cost me $300. Her mother in France couldn't believe that there was any doctor bill. She simply could not believe that the United States didn't provide health care for its citizens and visitors as does France, among many other countries.
Northwestwoods:
Income Tax, for me (remember, at the lower end of the spectrum!) is currently a tax-free allowance of £6,600 then it's 10% for the next £2,230 and 22% after that up to £33,600. However, as I said the supplemental National Insurance is also charged to nominally pay for pensions, NHS. It's more complicated, split between the employer and employee at various rates and depends on whether you have a private pension or not.
Full table here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm and
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm
TOTAL DEDUCTIONS for me are: £2700 for the year on £19500 income. That's with an employer pension, and it's at the lower income bracket. Compared to the example you state for Canadian health care at 21% this equates to about 14% so compares well. But you earn more, you pay more. FYI £19500 is roughly US$32,000
So yeah, you are paying for it. But the rates depend on how much your earn, and the care you receive is not means tested. If you are not working, and on benefits, you get the exact same care as a high earner receives.
But I also maintain this is all irrelevant. Although we all want a nice disposable income to buy shiny new things and gadgets if essential costs of living were taken care of like health and maybe utilities then a lower income isn't *really* lower. It's a shame the state tends to be wasteful and inneficiant when compared to private enterprise - but they do have the advantage of not having to make a profit! We already worked through all this in the UK with Thatcher in the 80's and the big privatisation of state run industry.
... but even she dared not tackle the NHS!
Anyway, healthcare is an insurance. There's the danger you could pay for years and never have to use the service. But there's also the chance you could forego insurance - if the option existed in your country - and find yourself needing substantial care at some point. That's the nature of insurance
PS. As for the free prescriptions I mentioned I believe Scotland were also introducing it, or may have, but England did not. And there's a very real chance it will be withdrawn in the future as it may be unsustainable. BUT: those on low incomes and benefits get free prescriptions, eye and teeth care wherever you are in the UK and even if you are not a low earner the price of prescriptions are fixed no matter what the medicine prescribed. At the moment, a prescription costs £7.20 or £104 a year. Unsure whether this is per item on the prescription or the entire prescription, but I believe it's the latter.
PPS. Private healthcare in the UK is a totally different beast. It is complimentary, and mainly offered by BUPA. Your first port of call is the NHS but you can get more urgent care and help from BUPA if the waiting list is too long. They also have private hospitals.
Another point I haven't seen covered is that you are also entitled to europe wide healthcare under the E111 scheme in participating countries. So if you are on holiday or whatever, you are covered in that country too. It's a like-for-like service offered so visitors to the UK are also covered. In fact, even if you were in the UK illegally or from a country not covered we would never turn you down.
What's it like there?
Not surprised but feel very sorry for Americans. I still hear them talking about "Socialised" healthcare like it's a bad thing but I have been ill for 30 years and the UK National Health Service has picked up every tab. Several ops, several specialists for free. Hardly any wait in my case. Twice i got an op same day as I went to the Dr. So there are occasional queues (apparently) but you can jump them if you go back to your GP and complain or you can opt to pay - the point is everyone is covered - which means poor sick people dont get poorer and sicker.
Americans deserve better - Michael moore might not be to everyone's taste but he isn't a greedy money grabbing swine and he clearly wants to help.
Try national coverage and please stop calling it "socialised" we're not communists
we just look after each other.
Bit more from me... like Stuart from Wales (Hi Stuart) I don't pay for prescriptions , nor do my parents as they are over 65 - dad's diabetes is brilliantly managed by nhs care. I just call the dr tell them if i have an infection and if they don't need to see me they put it straight through to the pharmacy who deliver to my door same day. Brother had free knee op. Grandma got free cancer care. Need i say more? You only hear about NHS when something goes wrong and it isn't perfect but it's leagues better than the scary situation facing all but the wealthiest Americans.
[...] why the hyperlinks in the text dont post live here on AWE anyway heres the link to the article The Raw Story Video: Insurance lobby’s secret plan to attack ‘Sicko’ and Michael M... please watch __________________ GOP RIPTo view links or images in signatures your post count [...]
[...] The Raw Story Video: Insurance lobby’s secret plan to attack ‘Sicko’ and Michael M... conservatives vote against their own best interests thats why you should change __________________ GOP RIPTo view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts."THE LIMBO was once a popular party game to see how low one could go as the bar sank downward. Dick Cheney has brought it back as the Limbaugh. -- [...]
Obama is dropping the ball his obsession with iraq and afghanistan and his putting the foxes from all street like geithner and sumners to handle the economy is the kiss of death. game over
Patience
Gov't sponsored threats from the US are commonplace and do not equate to trade agreements. Lets see this alleged trade agreement? I'm sure you have a linkie handy.
"Mere nationality does little to show familiarity with a given country's trade agreements."
Merely making claims about 'secret' trade agreements doesn't make them factual Nor do claims of personal anecdotes from 'visiting Victoria doctors'.
The US gives the banksters trillions in bailouts and Goldman Sachs is about to issue bonuses that equal an average 600,000 each to their 28,000 employees, thanks to the genrosity of the US taxpayer, and the military industrial complex gets trillions to wage multiple undeclared 'wars' but, by golly, that commie health care system is just too expensive!
Great comment northwestwoods.
To those of us arguing with the obvious corporate shills peppering this discussion know that they WILL NOT GO AWAY until the health care equity for all is either killed, as they did with Hillary Clinton's or it becomes law. And they will not be convinced by your arguments no matter how true so it's a waste of time to try (though others reading may benefit).
These are goons paid to post, people who George Monbiot calls "fake persuaders" and as such they have NO social conscience whatsoever. They've become so twisted, so corrupt from years of greed and rationalizing away injustice as to be almost souless. They simply couldn't care less that their fellow Americans are suffering, what's important to them is their blood money. Remember the old saying that some people would 'literally sell their mother for a dollar'? They're here. I know it sounds cynical but sadly it's true.
Their masters are the titans of industry whatever industry that might be, but are ultimately a comparatively few ULTRArich individuals who, to put it bluntly, hate everyone else and are determined that they will never pay one red cent in tax dollars to help anyone else out or protect the environment, though most of them inherited their wealth.
To see just one of the industry groups they work through see:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bivings_Group
Wow! Quite a lot of angry people here!
Most your comments contain some elements of fact/truth. Most of them are emotional ramblings coming from agenda (single payer) driven individuals.
I've spent 30 years managing physician owned independent group medical practices. 90+% of these docs take care of patients irrespective of how that care is paid for. The patient comes first. The healthcare delivery system (IMHO) is corrupted by the fact the vast majority of the patients (and the vast majority are actually insured) are insulated from the actual cost of care because the payment mechanism –group coverage- flows from an insurer to their employer to them. Price transparency has some potential, but is the “average patient” skilled in understanding what a tonsillectomy should cost? Do physicians and hospitals then compete on price alone? What about quality of outcomes?
Health care costs our economy so much because insurance companies need a reason (a profit) to offer the coverage. Physicians need to make a living commensurate with their educational attainment, medical skills and operating expenses. I’m not defending this situation, just providing a piece that I think a number of you have missed.
One could attain some savings by limiting the profit margins of the InsCos or reducing physician reimbursement (this does in fact happen every year and is a challenge I face each time I get a call from and InsCo suggesting we “talk about our contract renewal”). One question arising from such cost saving moves would be, “Who would then enter a business environment with caps on performance?” Physicians are smart people. If they could make more money in tech, banking (which will recover) or other industries, why would they choose medicine? I am, BTW, all for putting the InsCos under greater scrutiny. Oh, and the pay of hospital execs is mind boggling in some of our larger urban hospitals (profit or non-profit status has little to no bearing on exec comp).
We have an incredible shortage of primary care physicians now, attracting new people into this environment would be extremely challenging.
Ranting, or preaching to the choir, will not effect change. Find a solution and work for it.
KyGuy, of course people are angry. That happens when people find that they are getting the shaft. It doesn't usually happen when people feel that they have been treated fairly.
Essentially the argument in your third paragraph is that people, the average joe and jane, aren't paying you ENOUGH. That about right?
Then you say, "Health care costs our economy so much because insurance companies need a reason (a profit) to offer the coverage. Physicians need to make a living commensurate with their educational attainment, medical skills and operating expenses. I’m not defending this situation, just providing a piece that I think a number of you have missed."
Let's parse that a bit. First, I'd change your first statement to "Health care costs our economy so much because insurance companies need a reason (to make a killing) to offer the coverage."
The next statement, your assertion that doctors are somehow ENTITLED to gouge because they chose to go to medical school is an blatant appeal to greed. Are you asking us to feel sorry for you and just agree to be cheated ? Is making hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars a year, which is typical for doctors, a fair and just repayment for their educational expenses? Does anyone who goes to college for whatever reason to learn a profession then have a right to rip people off and justify it by waving their college costs around, or do you reserve that priviledge for doctors only? For example, the guy down the steet who took auto repair classes, I don't hear him using that justification. And just how long does it take a doctor to recover those fees based on their six figure salaries, the rest of their working life? By your reasoning, after the first six months to a year of practice at inflated prices to recover their fees they should then lower them substantially. But they don't do they. In fact, just why do you think that the public should be on the hook AT ALL because of your decision to go to medical school?
Then there's your outrageous comment, “Who would then enter a business environment with caps on performance". No no, say what you mean. You don't mean a cap on "performance". Any business that the public pays for they always want and should expect the best performance possible. But that's not what you mean, you mean a cap on PROFITS. You rather like being able to run your business like the Wild West where there are no restrictions on profits and you can drive people in bankruptcy and even homelessness if need be so that you can line your bank account. Who cares, there's always the next sucker.
"Ranting, or preaching to the choir, will not effect change. Find a solution and work for it." That's what people are trying to do in case you haven't noticed, no thanks to the "health" industry.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Issue-Briefs/2008/Aug/Seeing-Red--The-Growing-Burden-of-Medical-Bills-and-Debt-Faced-by-U-S--Families.aspx
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2008/Aug/Losing-Ground--How-the-Loss-of-Adequate-Health-Insurance-Is-Burdening-Working-Families--8212-Finding.aspx
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FBW/is_5_2/ai_72806171/
Looks like my reply to KyGuy didn't go through so I'll just post a couple of links.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2008/Aug/Losing-Ground--How-the-Loss-of-Adequate-Health-Insurance-Is-Burdening-Working-Families--8212-Finding.aspx
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FBW/is_5_2/ai_72806171
Ok I'll try one link.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2008/Aug/Losing-Ground--How-the-Loss-of-Adequate-Health-Insurance-Is-Burdening-Working-Families--8212-Finding.aspx
I posted a long reply to KyGuy's comments that apparently didn't make it perhaps because I included too many links. First, of course people are angry KyGuy, that generally happens when one is being cheated.
Basically KyGuy's issue in his third paragraph is that he feels that the averge joe and jane aren't paying ENOUGH for medical care!
Next, he argues that doctors should be able to charge up the yazoo so as to force the public to cover the costs of his decision to go to medical school. My question is, even though I see no reason the public should subsidize your decision, at the inflated prices that doctors charge how long does it take before those costs are recovered? The rest of a doctor's working life? I think not, not at their six and seven figure saleries. And why don't I see other professions using that ridiculous justification to gouge their customers? Tell ya what though, even though I don't think it's fair, let's put a provision in the health care bill that allows individual doctors to either within a year's time or incrementally include the exact costs of their education - and not a penny more. After that require that their prices drop substantially to a fair one.
He then asks, “Who would then enter a business environment with caps on performance?”. Come on doctor, say what you mean. You don't mean a cap on performance, nobody's trying to limit doctor's performance. Everyone has the right to expect the best quality from anyone offering a service without being gouged. No, what you mean is a cap on PROFITS right? Who cares that people are driven into bankruptcy and even homelessness because of the greed of the medical industry? There are always more suckers who need to see a doctor.
"Ranting, or preaching to the choir, will not effect change. Find a solution and work for it." What do you think people here are trying to do, no thanks to the "health" industry.
[...] Michael Moore alerted us to Friday evening’s PBS Bill Moyers Show interview with Wendall Potter, a former executive with insurance giant CIGNA. READ MORE… [...]
There are a many things here that are well said.
The current system is definitely broken. I also see people who assume that everyone has insurance through their employer.
1: Maybe you work for a very small company and they don't offer it.
2: Maybe you are self employed.
3: Maybe you are unemployed
4: Maybe you are disabled
5: insert situation not covered by the above
I was hit by #3 recently. While cobra will cover me for a while in a way that I can afford, we looked into coverage.
My wife and I are both type 2 diabetics and have a son with cerebral palsy. The insurance agents have basically said "Good luck in finding AFFORDABLE coverage (if you can)."
With that said, why in the world would *I* or anyone else want to keep the current system. I am not a fan of turning it over to the government since I really don't think
that they have handled ANYTHING in a good way (social security?).
I sure wouldn't want them cutting X billion from health care because their pet projects "need it more." I don't want to be FURTHER at the whim of politicians than I already am.
So there definitely needs to be some kind of reform.
However, even with health care insurance there is the one other that most people forget about - malpractice insurance. This is another place where the insurance companies want to gouge people/doctors. And they in turn pass that costs off to us.
Reform is a must. If it is in the form of heavy regulation to make things more affordable, then so be it.
While the health care bill passed the first stage, good luck on the next.
Like this article says - expect anything painting the situation in a grim light to be attacked. Expect politicians to be threatened.
Here's a tip - if enough people complain to their perspective politicians, they can then rest assured that they may well be out of a job either way.
Would they want to leave office having best served their constituents or having done their best to only remain in power.
Remind them.
This was the best Bill Moyers show ever. I love the show best hour on TV without a doubt.
This guy Potter should be sitting across from Obama's desk right now.
BTW I am a big fan of JHoffa. Keep up the good work my friend
We love you Northwestwoods. Canadians are good people but if only your government would stop clubbing baby fur seals. WTF is up with that.
empi, ditto on the fur seals. I like Canada but that's just rotten.
empi
"This was the best Bill Moyers show ever."
I agree, Moyers is my hero. It's the only thing on TV anymore. The guy is a genuine progressive in the truest sense of the word. So is Michael Moore and any one who denigrates him can go fuck themselves.
PS: I don't support clubbing seals neither, not do I support Canad's involvement in Bush's illegal wars.
Stuart
"What's it like there?"
I am going to say your system is superior. We get zero eye or dental care and, though there are programs available to some, we pay for our own drugs, which are plenty costly, though they cost more in the US. It appears we pay higher taxes all around, though your VAT was in place probably decades before ours was. The national VAT here (GST) is 7%, recently reduced for political reasons to 5%, and provincially it's an additional 0%-7% across the country, I believe.
I have found access to doctors and hospitals excellent for most of my life. I moved across country in 1998 and established a new doctor (of my choosing) who sees me within 24 hrs. or less in every instance.
The US has set out to undermine our public health system and sabotage labour ever since Canada become signatory to the Canada US Free Trade Agreement and the subsequent North American Free Trade Agreement but no politicians have had the balls to take it on directly, thought the Conservatives have done whatever they can to ruin it.
Canadians are happy with it and it is a fact that it is much more cost-effective than the system in the US because private insurance does not play a role.
I also subscribe to mandatory public auto insurance (in some provinces). It's not as pretty a picture but it is still less costly than private.
The health care process here involves zero paperwork, no bills, no communications with insurance companies, go to the doctor, go home and forget about it.
uksicko
"You only hear about NHS when something goes wrong and it isn't perfect but it's leagues better than the scary situation facing all but the wealthiest Americans."
Thanks for your posts. Americans are being knowingly screwed by their government.
I am sure your input is much appreciated.
Cheers
I am working in an insurance company.I know very well that they misrepresent their case.The reason issues like these never seem to get resolved is that corporations, especially from Ronald Reagan's time on learned that it's cheaper to hire professional liars, what I call "liars for hire" to distort the facts then to be caught red-handed with their hand in the public's pocket and have to give back some of their loot."
http://ezinearticles.com/?Acai-Berry---How-I-Lost-30-Pounds-in-Under-30-Days-Using-The-Acai-Berry&id=1998407
[...] The Raw Story Video: Insurance lobby’s secret plan to attack ‘Sicko’ and Michael M... __________________ GOP RIPTo view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts."THE LIMBO was once a popular party game to see how low one could go as the bar sank downward. Dick Cheney has brought it back as the Limbaugh. -- [...]
[...] The Raw Story Video: Insurance lobby’s secret plan to attack ‘Sicko’ and Michael M... only STUPID people vote against their OWN best interests but IM DONE you repigs are irrelevant anyway __________________ GOP RIPTo view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts."THE LIMBO was once a popular party game to see how low one could go as the bar sank downward. Dick Cheney has brought it back as the Limbaugh. -- [...]
Hi northwestwoods, no problem. Just wanted to say there is so much US medical propaganda that says your model is better when everyone outside the US finds it appalling. It's not unAmerican or unpatriotic to admit this. You deserve better.
At the top level US healthcare is superb but most other nations find your lack of coverage horrifying. It's not weak or soft to help poor people get better when they're sick.
I know US Drs are greedy because i used to pay international medicare bills - basically we were told to " expect more than double cost" if it's in the USA - one night in hospital even with no treatment, double sometimes triple cost of anywhere else in the world - plus LOTS of unnecessary invasive tests and retests just to make money. Saw it all the time.
US patients can now fly to south africa or india for cheaper operations and those who are able will start doing so - perhaps that and the internet will finally bring prices down till people realise it isn't just a business opportunity.
Good luck
I get free eye and dental care too
just walked in today and asked for appointments on friday (eyes) and wednesday (teeth) so thats less than a weeks' wait. if you need glasses you get free ones (not that nice though) or 100 pounds voucher towards posh ones.
Private dental here is a massive rip off you can really tell the difference,the private dentists are like a different species....but many people do it as a snob thing. Cosmetic dentistry is private unless its just braces for teenagers - they are free.
bit of blurb about europe for balance:
In france you get free wine with your hospital meal, but hey that's france
(they used to have alcohol and tobacco allowance for prisoners in 18th century ha ah - ) They spend way more than us on their Healthcare
I'd like Britain to manage waste (stupid posters, overprescribing etc)and fraud a bit better in the NHS and they have got a bit paranoid about testing everyone for everything just in case they get it wrong and someone sues (the "risk avoidance" problem) so like i say it's not perfect. But they are concentrating on preventative care too now, which i really approve of. Biggest problem is some patients are a pain and don't turn up for their operations or refuse to listen because they feel insulted when the dr says lay off the chips and get some exercise - oh no they want a magic pill ----- grrr! Some people.
If you're interested there are many drs from all over the world including USA on twitter - well worth a search
last bit from me. Did i say that as the NHS is the UKs largest employer all the money taken in tax goes back into the system creating jobs in the UK - so i'm not sure we lose that much - i'd rather pay a nurse than a politician
all of this because of one thing... "greed"
What? You mean they lied to us? The media lies? OMG, you are completely blowing my mind. Not!
Whenever the smell of money is in the air, you can be sure that the interests of those being extracted for money are only secondary to the taking of the money itself. Human nature. How sad. If you wanna know what peoples' true humanitarian beliefs are, look at the not-for-profit work they do (or completely don't do for that matter.)
Media is run on a for-profit basis. Media is corrupt and influenceable. Same for health care. Same for education. Same for...
I lived in UK for 2 years of the last 5. I expected to see horrible conditions and endless waits, but received very good, personal health care, including specialist care and procedures, as the spouse of a UK citizen.
When I brought my spouse back to the US, I warned him that it was going to be different, but he was still shocked and appalled at how difficult/expensive it is to receive treatment in the US and how much paperwork/red tape we go through on a regular basis.
Frankly, I'm embarrassed.
We like to call ourselves the "leaders of the free world," yet we cannot ensure all of our citizens have equal access to basic health care.
[...] 1 | PBS Just another example of corporate interests vs people’s interests. According to The Raw Story » Video: Insurance lobby’s secret plan to attack ‘Sicko’ and Michael Moore: In an interview with PBS’s Bill Moyers, a former insurance executive reveals a secret plan [...]
[...] to The Raw Story Michael Moore was the target of a discreditation campaign. This information has and is coming out [...]
[...] http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/07/video-insurance-lobbys-secret-plan-to-attack-sicko-and-michael-moor... [...]
What can they really do to him and his movies though? He has already aired the movie and got the message out there and now many people know the truth.
Well, When I brought my spouse back to the US, I warned him that it was going to be different, but he was still shocked and appalled at how difficult/expensive it is to receive treatment in the US and how much paperwork/red tape we go through on a regular basis. thank you.
I'm not surprised that you wouldn't be familiar with that little bit of trade knowledge. Even I wasn't familiar with the 'agreements' (govt sponsored threats) until informed of such while visiting a client (a Canadian MD) in Victoria a couple of years ago. Mere nationality does little to show familiarity with a given country's trade agreements.
http://www.teethwhiteningresult.com
Many a times these insurance companies never play by the rules, we need to choose the right plan for us.