Photo credit: Associated Press
Associated Press -- A mass-kissing protest near the Mormon church temple Sunday drew a shouting match between gay activists and a group of faithful Mormons.
For the second consecutive weekend, about 100 people gathered to stage a "kiss-in" to protest the treatment of two gay men cited for trespassing July 9 after they shared a kiss on the plaza owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Both gay and straight couples exchanged kisses during the protest.
Demonstrators were greeted at the south entrance by a group of protesters carrying large signs that denounced homosexuality, prompting a heated verbal exchange.
--Rest of article continues below--
This video was posted to YouTube by user 'NewsPoliticsNews' on July 19, 2009.
Typical faggots.. Only out to outrage people with their perverse behavior.
Actually, I hope they keep this up.. I hope they get even more extreme.
It's high time that decent people were reminded that faggots are far more annoying than they are portrayed in the media.
A backlash would be a good thing, and they're begging for one.
Jhoffa, Honey, GET OUT OF THE CLOSET
Kudos to all the brave committed souls who are participating in these demonstrations! We need to remind the Mormon Church that they are benighted and ignorant and that WE are not going away. The more negative publicity that church gets the better! I once lived in Salt Lake City and it was a horrible experience for anyone not Mormon.
"Jhoffa, Honey, GET OUT OF THE CLOSET"
Certainly.. THE MOMENT THIS ENTIRE REPUBLI-PHOBE WEBSITE ADMITS that they spanked it for 8 long years of Bush's rule and secretly wanted to gobble Cheney's cock.
Republi-phobes should really stop trying to hide their inclinations.
We all KNOW you're closet Republicans. That's obviously why you have this irrational fear of them. Cause they turn you on!
Admit it, you'd assrape Nixon in a second.. Wouldn't you!
..the Mormon Church that they are benighted and ignorant.. *scritch* *scratch* ..the Mormon Church that they are benighted and ignorant.. *scritch* *scratch* ..the Mormon Church that they are benighted and ignorant.. *scritch* *scratch* ..the Mormon Church that they are benighted and ignorant.. *scritch* *scratch*
Benighted?
As I said before, when I was a young man hitch hiking around the western states it was hard to get through a small mormon town without some deacon of the church trying to give me a BJ. It really wasn't much of a problem with anyone but mormons. Like priests from the pedophile church the strong taboos on sex drives them to homosexually or maybe it is just bred into them.
I think I might even kiss a guy, if it would piss off some motherfucking religious freaks.
GET OUT OF THE CLOSET, jhoffa
GET OUT OF THE CLOSET, Jhoffa
Kissing is "extreme"?
Good Lord Jhoffa. Could you be anymore obvious?
"It's high time that decent people were reminded that faggots are far more annoying than they are portrayed in the media."
Damn right.
Kudos to Mr Hoffa.
Hmmmm - none are free until all are free; this means you.
Jhoffa,
Sweetie, it's OVER. GET OUT OF THE CLOSET
Jhoffa hates Jews too. We should find him a nice gay Jewish boy to set him free.
Hoffa,
decent people don't detain and handcuff a gay couple over a kiss, then call the police.
decent peple can just say, "get off may lawn!" if the couple were indeed on private property.
If you want to know what the decent thing to do is, imagine it were a heterosexual, married couple that got caught doing the same thing. It would not have ended up with them being pinned down onto the ground while getting their hands restrained.
The mormons have a right to be ignorant if they so choose. However, the FREEDOM afforded to ALL AMERICANS gives couples, gay or straight, to kiss in public. And the mormons have to just accept it otherwise they are anti-freedom.
"Jhoffa hates Jews too."
Zionists..
It's "Jhoffa hates ZIONISTS"
@danisnape
"Decent people" aren't corn holing, trespassing faggots determined to offend everyone within a thousand miles who doesn't happen to approve of their lifestyle.
Why can't the drunken ass pirates go grope one another at their place?
a kiss on the cheek, or a simple one on the lips is a far cry from "corn-holing".
and I am a lesbian. I like my corn in a can, thank you very much. And I don't go around in some sort of attempt to offend everyone.
want to know a BIG GAY SECRET?
ignore the gay people kissing and the lesbian people kissing and the straight people kissing and you might realize that homosexuals are people and just want to be treated as equals. I swear, treat them like it's no big deal and you might just realize that it really isn't a big deal.
I mean, it's not like there are people... to use your words... "corn-holing" in public.
I'm glad we no longer arrest interracial couples for holding hands or hugging in public, now let's see if we can do the same for a gay couple.
ps: straight couples "corn-hole", too.
"..want to know a BIG GAY SECRET?"
No, but I'm sure you are going to tell me anyway..
"..ignore the gay people kissing and the lesbian people kissing and the straight people kissing and you might realize that homosexuals are people and just want to be treated as equals. "
Want to know a bigger secret?
I don't actually care what you do, or with whom, on your own time and property.
The single biggest thing about gays is their agenda.
They are hateful heterophobes who are hell bent on forcing their perverse behavior on society and our children. I won't permit this.
Look at the way they attacked the Boy Scouts, for crying out loud.
The reason?
Gays aren't HAPPY BEING IGNORED. They don't WANT "tolerance" They want a standing fucking, government backed ovation for jamming their dicks in each others asses.. and if you don't like that, they want you punished as a "hater"
Amazing, isn't it?
It gets better..
They demand laws which, backed by the federal government and by design, dispense a lower level of justice to straight crime victims than to their faggot pals.
EXAMPLE: Faggots say that if my grandmother is attacked and beaten for her SS check, she should receive less satisfaction from our court system than if she were attacked and beaten for sexual preference..
Now here's the same woman, with the same injuries.. But she receives less justice and satisfaction because she doesn't engage in gay sex.
That's BULLSHIT.. And it's a prime example of the fag agenda at work.
And you morons wonder why people hate you..
Think about it: How would you feel if the same standard were applied on the basis of race? Say a white man getting hurt is punished more harshly than hurting a black man... And not as a matter decided by a jury who can hear all the evidence and weigh all the facts, either.. But as a purely statutory matter. Written out plainly and backed by the full force of the government..
The agenda is why people don't like you.. Frankly, none of care what you do with your diseased body parts.
Big trouble in Salt Lake City ~
Quick, send in Mitt!
Jhoffa_
It's time to bring your "robotic" vacuum cleaner out of the closet and let it give you a blow-job, Ray.
And the next time the mormons are on my porch I'm going to handcuff them and call the police and say they tried to "fuck" with me.
Jhoffa, seriously, you seem pretty latent. It's one thing to try to hide it from us but don't hide it from yourself.
jhoffa is an extreme anti-Semite.
His ravings can be found elsewhere, not that you'd want to find them -- anymore than you'd want to step in a steaming fresh pile of dog-doo.
The mormons "changed" on polygamy, letting Blacks into the preisthood and they have a real problem with gays--when it reaches the point where everybody "has" one in their family, the good ol' prophet will change the policy because it will become a dividing issue.
Aaaaaaaaaah...cute little republicans don't want to do anything that anyone would disapprove of. Want to make their mommy and daddies proud of them.
"jhoffa is an extreme anti-Semite."
Anti-Zionist..
As in:
"jhoffa is an extreme anti-ZIONIST"
As in:
"Jhoffa_ is sick of sending billions of dollars over to Israel so they can chase little kids around with helicopter gunships over a piece of land no self respecting cat would use as a litter box, Anti-Zionist."
Stick that in your kosher pipe and smoke it, rabbi.
Ralph
I have to defend Jhoffa_, he hates Zionists, not the Jewish people. I say over and over, those rat bastard Israelis put the Star of David on their army tanks; it fucking stinks.
Okay, hell just froze over..
The Lord hates these people!
Why I know That There is a God and That He Loves Me
A Personal Testimony.
Years ago doubt was creeping into my head about the Lord and then a miracle happened.
Three years ago 100 members of my church were enroute to a bible camp in the Blueridge Mountains of Virginia. They were traveling in a chartered bus. As they sang hymns, Satan was up to his old tricks. You see, the bus driver was an atheist alcoholic socialist and that day he was filling his coffee mug with vodka. As the bus wound up through the switchbacks, the driver got progressively drunker. Then it happened. It was that day that changed this poor sinner's life forever. Entering a particularly tight switchback, the besotted driver finally lost control of the bus and it plummeted 1500 feet down into a ravine where it exploded into a fireball incinerating the flock. The only survivor that day was a young boy who was thrown from the bus by his father seconds before it hit the bottom.
This young boy suffered severe brain damage from hitting a rock head first and will have to wear a football helmet and drool cup for the remainder of his life. But his survival proved to me that miracles do happen because God does exist and loves me. The Lord used that accident to bring me back to his flock.
Hallelujah!
Praise Jesus! Just open your eyes to his miracles and you will see them everywhere.
Very funny..
I can cut and paste screen names too you know.
There's no need for me to do so.. I can make my case without resorting to such things.
Someone broke into my house last night and stole everything I had. When I woke up it was all back. How do I know this---my dog told me.
Picture this, Denny..
Without a higher authority to define morality for us, we're left with a definition derived from men. Correct?
Sure it is, because where else would it come from?
Question: Why should we allow them to define "moral" for us?
Who says they are right? Look at nature? Why shouldn't we simply behave like animals in the field? Is the big fish wrong to eat the smaller fish? That's natural selection, isn't it?
I mean, this is at the heart of Darwin's theories.. You believe in Darwin, don't you?
Keep talking, jhoffa.... the more you open your mouth the less anyone is going to take you seriously.
Without a higher authority to define morality for us, we're left with a definition derived from men. Correct?
But I have to admit to being morally disgusted by god in the OT. What a jerk. He's into rape, slavery, genocide.
And in the NT he doesn't get any better. Instead of forgiving everyone he knocks up a young virgin just before her marriage and has a kid for the sole purpose of having him murdered in a gruesome blood sacrifice to himself.
Yes, our morality comes from this god.
I look at stars at night and feel "very" small, but "complete." The person next to me tells me that "he" can talk to the "person" that put this all together----for a fee. That's when the "laying on of hands" happens.
"He came down to earth as an incarnation of Himself, to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to forgive His people, who he had made in the image of Himself, and save them from--wait for it!--the wrath of...HIMSELF! TAAAA-DAAAH!!!!!!"
Can you put a "2" or something behind my handle when you steal it? It makes the conversation much easier to follow.
"But I have to admit to being morally disgusted by god in the OT. What a jerk. He's into rape, slavery, genocide.
And in the NT he doesn't get any better. Instead of forgiving everyone he knocks up a young virgin just before her marriage and has a kid for the sole purpose of having him murdered in a gruesome blood sacrifice to himself.
Yes, our morality comes from this god."
1. Doesn't matter who it is.. So long as it is a higher authority than man.
2. Your paraphrased passages are... Well.. Interesting interpretations.
"Jhoffa_
Typical faggots.. Only out to outrage people with their perverse behavior.
Actually, I hope they keep this up.. I hope they get even more extreme.
It's high time that decent people were reminded that faggots are far more annoying than they are portrayed in the media.
A backlash would be a good thing, and they're begging for one."
________________________________________________________________
ooooh! giddyup you big devil you. You say right here that you 'want a backlash'...kinky you big minx you! spank that Heiney you big butch masterpiece
People tell me that their internal moral compass has shown them that bible god is an immoral little tyrant, but I refuse to acknowledge this reality. You see, I don't want to lose my invisible friend.
"He came down to earth as an incarnation of Himself, to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to forgive His people, who he had made in the image of Himself, and save them from--wait for it!--the wrath of...HIMSELF! TAAAA-DAAAH!!!!!!"
Sort of..
Remember the OT test he asked of Abraham.
It was a horrible thing he asked of him. Since it was a test he stopped him from completing it.
He then completed the task he set before Abraham, but would not let him finish.
My bible class teacher told me not to touch my naughty bits because all of my dead relatives up in heaven are called to watch me when I do. Their pagers go off and they all sit down around a hole in the heavenly floor watching me do it.
Picture an ice fishing scene.
"People tell me that their internal moral compass has shown them that bible god is an immoral little tyrant, but I refuse to acknowledge this reality. You see, I don't want to lose my invisible friend."
So long as you continue to steal handles from other posters, you will never run out of imaginary friends!
Further, it doesn't have to be Abraham's God we're talking about here. It can be any higher authority.
If no higher authority exists to define "morality" then we are left with man's definition by default.
See?
The message of Christianity is that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions god's infinite love. - Bill Hicks
I think we gave this "comment" section the "kiss" of death. It will scroll off into the sunset.
"Picture an ice fishing scene."
Picture getting your own handle to post under.
I fear the Raw Story powers that be aren't going to be too happy with a 500 post thread and one screen name..
This isn't the first thread where jhoffa has had a loose bowel movement.
But then again man's moral authority is far superior to bible god's when you think about it.
For example, we don't mete out infinite punishment for finite transgressions. I mean how many years of torture in the hellfires does Hitler deserve? I say no more than 5 million.
Then there's the moral obscenity of collective punishment for individial transgression. Adam & Eve eat an apple and bible god the sadist places the Curse of Original Sin on all humanity for ever.
Bible god is less moral than Hitler.
Man's morality is superior.
The more I think about bible god the more I realize what a sh*t he really is.
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot
Let me distill the message of bible-god into one sentence: Love me or I will torture you forever.
Only those suffering from a religious version of Stockholm Syndrome are likely to respond positively to this celestial thug's protection racket
There are only three roads to take after studying the bible:
-the 'honest' become atheists,
-the 'deluded' continue to believe,
-while the 'unscrupulous' become clergy.
We must respect the other man's religion, but only to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart. - H.L. Mencken
How many "cuss" words get you into hell? One!-fuck that!
"But then again man's moral authority is far superior to bible god's when you think about it."
Many people believe that..
"For example, we don't mete out infinite punishment for finite transgressions. I mean how many years of torture in the hellfires does Hitler deserve? I say no more than 5 million."
I'd give him a medal if he'd toast Ralphie up there..
"Then there's the moral obscenity of collective punishment for individial transgression. Adam & Eve eat an apple and bible god the sadist places the Curse of Original Sin on all humanity for ever."
You're missing the point there too.
It's a mechanism for forgiveness which wasn't available to anyone but men.
It's bringing things full circle. Eve gets forgiveness, because Christ died for her. Satan, meanwhile.. No such thing exists for him.
It might be fair to say that he can't be forgiven.
He didn't seal Eve's fate.. He sealed his own.
Bible god is less moral than Hitler.
Man's morality is superior.
"Bible god is less moral than Hitler.
Man's morality is superior."
I forgot to edit that off the above post..
Apologies.
OH. MY. FLYING. SPAGHETTI. MONSTER. Funniest thread EVER. And on RS, to boot...
Isaac Asimov: "If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul."
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Nietzsche
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." - Thomas Jefferson
"The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell." - Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943
"One man's religion is another man's belly-laugh." - From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one" - George Bernard Shaw
"If the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" - Robert G. Ingersoll
Oh, hell, it's god.He's put a curse on me...all I see is Jhoffa_'s...lots of them....oh,shit, I must repent.........TO LATE ......ohhhh...noooooo ...SPLATZXXX!!!!!
“We are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - George H. Smith
Christianity operates on the same basis as the mafia.
It's a celestial protection racket.
Join our cult and pay your dues, or something very bad is going to happen to you.
Paste all the quotes you wish.. If a higher authority doesn't define morality for us, then it comes from men.
If it comes from men, it is suspect. Why shouldn't we rob, rape and kill like animals in the field? To the strong and the brave go the spoils.. That's natural selection.
You want some old ladies SS check? Just take it.. It is your natural right to do so and it is no more immoral than a large fish consuming a smaller one.
Paste all the quotes you wish.. If a higher authority doesn't define morality for us, then it comes from men.
---
Do you read English, poindexter?
I am carpet-bombing you with reasons as to why the monster god of the bible is the last source in the universe on morality. Good thing he's nothing more than the a Bronze Age tribal wat god.
IOW, he's not real.
Just listen to yourself still trying to defend this a$$hole of a deity. Hitler is a saint in comparison.
You are totally brainwashed by the Xian cult.
You want some old ladies SS check? Just take it.. It is your natural right to do so and it is no more immoral than a large fish consuming a smaller one.
--
Christ almighty.
The only people taking old ladies SS checks are the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells.
My morality as an atheist doesn't allow me to do that.
"IOW, he's not real."
Not everyone is supposed to believe.. and that's fine.
However, if you are correct, this means two things.
1. We need another authority to define our morality for us.
2. If no other authority exists, then true morality doesn't exist.
2a. We are then left with an arbitrary definition from fickle, fallible men... probably out to serve themselves and protect their stuff by telling us that natural law is "immoral"
Whoopie..
Who in their right minds can believe in and worship an alleged god who tortures people for three back-to back eternities, with only a short ciggie break in between?
Think about.
Are you also a fan boi of Hitler and Stalin?
Is your moral compass so faulty that you can not see how depraved your bible god really is?
Jhoffa_ is exploding with rage at his sky fairy because he realizes his sky fairy makes people gay in the womb with multiple sperm fertilizations of one egg, twin chimera fusions, microchimerism from already born sibling DNA, and endocrine disrupters, and Jhoffa_ opposes abortions in all cases except for fetuses that will look like Michelle Obama. So Jhoffa_ has painted himself into a crazy corner with a world of increasing gay populations because he opposes abortions. Moreover, he suspects his daughters are gay because they hate him. Oh the irony!
"My morality as an atheist doesn't allow me to do that."
But you don't have true morality..
You have a mere textbook definition and a societal norm.
You have floatsom on the shifting tides of popular culture... Certainly nothing which can compare to the science of Darwinism and the laws set by nature.
2. If no other authority exists, then true morality doesn't exist.
--
You people are creepy and scary.
I got news for you: morality exists. Humans know what is moral and what is not.
Well, there are exceptions. People like you can only be moral of there's an imaginary eye-in-sky watching you 24/7 and threatening you with an eternity of torture.
That's why I want retards to keep believing.
Mary, really.. We need you in this conversation like we need multiple tazerings in the bag.
"I got news for you: morality exists. Humans know what is moral and what is not."
Not objectively..
We have norms and webster's dictionary.
You're intentionally missing the larger point.
You are afraid to acknowledge it because you think I will have won something.
I don't want to win. I want you to understand the philosophy behind these things.
I love the fake Jhoffa_s! May the fake ones push the real one back under his bridge.
Buddy, your evil sick twisted degenerate god is the biggerst moral obscenity in the universe.
According to the Xian cult, he cares not a whit what you are as a person. He only cares that you join his fan club.
What is the price of admission to this fan club? Is is good works?
Nope! LOLz! Not at all.
All you have to do to get in is a 5 minute fast food style conversion (I iz born again and warshed in da bludda jayzuz!), and you're in like a dirty shirt.
What a morally repugnant concept.
That's why most Xians are such unappealing people.
I'll judge a man by his character and deeds and not by whether or not he believes in a sky fairy for which there is no evidence.
"Who in their right minds can believe in and worship an alleged god who tortures people for three back-to back eternities, with only a short ciggie break in between?"
Frankly, I'm not crazy about it either..
But when I make something (And I make allot of things) I make it for a purpose. If it will not serve my purpose, then I reserve the right to discard it.
Why? Because I am me and it is.. well.. It.
Someone please remind me again, just what is the difference between :
1) A Person of Faith
2) A Person of Credulity
I always get confused about the distinction.
As Hitchens put it, a Person of Faith is someone who will believe anything without evidence.
"Buddy, your evil sick twisted degenerate god is the biggerst moral obscenity in the universe."
Not at all.. He doesn't exist, remember?
Odd that you are so upset about a sky fairy..
And which fictional God are you speaking of? Jesus? The guy who said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Who healed the man who led him to his death? Him?
Yeah, he sounds like a bad dude alright.
"As Hitchens put it, a Person of Faith is someone who will believe anything without evidence."
I have evidence.
You won't believe it. I will not relate it here.
Evidence which is neither circumstantial or anecdotal.
But it won't help you..
Well, it was a slice.
This thread just goes to show how effective the Xian brainwashing can be.
Is it any wonder that every debate with them ends with a plea to "stop thinking and just start believing in my morally obscene invisible sky-fairy."
Toodles everyone.
Come visit us at http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
"Is it any wonder that every debate with them ends with a plea to "stop thinking and just start believing in my morally obscene invisible sky-fairy."
I don't believe I ever suggested such a thing..
Regards Jr.
You won't believe it. I will not relate it here.
Evidence which is neither circumstantial or anecdotal.
But it won't help you..
--
You really have no clue then what "evidence" means.
Put down the holey bible and go read a dictionary.
"You really have no clue then what "evidence" means."
Yes, I believe I do..
You won't believe me. It is truly ironic how closed minded that "open minded" can become.. But, yes.. I most certainly do.
From reddit:
On the question of why the universe is so big.
Perhaps the universe needs to be so large in order to contain all the equipment needed to monitor our sex lives? Which leads to the obvious conclusion that the universe is just a big reality porn show for extradimensional beings, and the prohibitions about sex are just to make things more interesting.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/92mgr/help_pondering_the_origin_of_the_universe_makes/c0b84yg
LOLz!
Yes, I believe I do..
You won't believe me. It is truly ironic how closed minded that "open minded" can become.. But, yes.. I most certainly do.
--
I have an invisible 30 foot high dinosaur living in my garage. Only I can see him.
Do you believe in my invisible dinosaur?
If you don't it's because you are close-minded!
"On the question of why the universe is so big."
You are addressing the universe, but you can't grasp the basics of philosophy?
You are putting the cart before the horse, Jr.
A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell; mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
- Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
- Mark Twain, Following the Equator
It is plain that there is one moral law for heaven and another for the earth. The pulpit assures us that wherever we see suffering and sorrow which we can relieve and do not do it, we sin, heavily. There was never yet a case of suffering or sorrow which God could not relieve. Does He sin, then? If He is the Source of Morals He does — certainly nothing can be plainer than that, you will admit. Surely the Source of law cannot violate law and stand unsmirched; surely the judge upon the bench cannot forbid crime and then revel in it himself unreproached.
- Mark Twain, Fables of Man
Hoffa -- the original -- you're one twisted closet case.
Jhoffa,
I don't want to push any agenda down your throat.
Hate crimes are an enhancement to crimes already comitted because of the nature of the crime, not just because it happened to a minority.
Let's look at it this way; you (and I mean any person) have a 1:20,000 chance of being murdered by someone. Nearly all of the time it's by someone who knows you and will 'profit' somehow from said crime.
Essentially, you know why they are murdering you.
Victims of hate crimes are chosen at random. For example, a transsexual has a 1:12 chance of being brutally murdered in their lifetime here in the US. And NOT done by someone who knows them, this minority group gets targeted and killed for no 'profit' or gain. Simply put, it's a harsher punishment because of the animus behind it and the net result of such crimes is to coerce the public to your way of thinking. To put it simply, it's a type of domestic terrorism.
Look at your own words, "if they just kept their corn-holing in their houses". Homosexuals are getting killed in excessively brutal ways by people who wish nothing more than for the elimination of homosexuality through extermination.
Hate crimes enhancements are for crimes that target a minority simply for existing, as opposed to someone wanting to claim their spouse's life insurance.
And I, with my "diseased body parts", do not hate you. In fact, I'll pray for God to show you the kind of mercy and compassion that you seem to lack. I have done nothing to prove that I work for this so-called "gay agenda" that you seem so sure is threatening your life.
So, Jhoffa, I'm going to pray for you.
Answer the q:
I have an invisible 30 foot high dinosaur living in my garage. Only I can see him.
Do you believe in my invisible dinosaur?
If you don't it's because you are close-minded!
Quoting the ramblings of second stringer like Mark Twain is really pointless.
He sounds like the typical atheist there.. all angsty and stuff.
Certainly not a happy fellow.
The Christian’s Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes… The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession — and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry… There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.
- Mark Twain, Bible Teaching and Religious Practice
"Answer the q:
I have an invisible 30 foot high dinosaur living in my garage. Only I can see him.
Do you believe in my invisible dinosaur?
If you don't it's because you are close-minded!"
No, I don't believe in him. I have no evidence, be it circumstantial or anecdotal to believe he exists.
It is not because I am close-minded.
Certainly not a happy fellow.
--
The saddest creatures on earth are bible-thumpers like you. Hate eats away at your guts like a cancer.
Just reread your posts here.
You are an angry bitter man.
Really, Twain is as big an atheist dingbat as anyone I have ever met.
He's obviously not happy being him.
I couldn't care less about his childlike nonsense.
Surely you can do better.
No, I don't believe in him. I have no evidence, be it circumstantial or anecdotal to believe he exists.
--
I have exactly the same level of evidence for him that you have for your obscene buybull gawd.
"Just reread your posts here."
Perhaps you should take some of your own advice?
I couldn't care less about his childlike nonsense.
--
That made me laugh out loud!
This is your religion:
"He came down to earth as an incarnation of Himself, to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to forgive His people, who he had made in the image of Himself, and save them from--wait for it!--the wrath of...HIMSELF! TAAAA-DAAAH!!!!!!"
"I have exactly the same level of evidence for him that you have for your obscene buybull gawd."
I realize that, and I don't care..
I don't care for two reasons..
1. Not everyone will believe.. and this is fine. We have free will, remember?
2. ( And pay close attention to this one.. )
Unlike other religions, such as Islam and Judaism, Christianity IS NOT merely a series of rituals. You can't force someone to believe something they do not wish to believe. And that's fine.. to reduce it to a series of rituals would render it meaningless for everyone involved.
Going to Church, Prayer or reading the bible isn't enough.. So it is impossible to force Christianity upon someone... although I am sure the misguided have tried it at some point.
"That made me laugh out loud!"
It shouldn't.. Srsly, you can do better than Twain if you wish.
Atheists quote him frequently because they believe it will be particularly offensive to Christians.
It's just boring really.
You can do better than that hack.
Going to Church, Prayer or reading the bible isn't enough.. So it is impossible to force Christianity upon someone... although I am sure the misguided have tried it at some point.
--
According the Americans all it takes to get a puffy cloud reserved in heaven is a fast food style conversion. That's it. I iz warshed in the bludd of Jayzuz!
Many Xians have told me that god doesn't give a crap about good deeds. So if you were a standup guy of say Buddhist orJewish faith--or no faith--you are going to be tortured for all eternity!
"According the Americans all it takes to get a puffy cloud reserved in heaven is a fast food style conversion. That's it. I iz warshed in the bludd of Jayzuz!"
LOL! No way.. That's completely un-scriptural and you know it. Remember your "faith" reference above? It's all throughout the bible. The first fo the ten commandments for crying out loud.
These people don't know enough to teach what they think they believe.
"Many Xians have told me that god doesn't give a crap about good deeds. So if you were a standup guy of say Buddhist orJewish faith--or no faith--you are going to be tortured for all eternity!"
There is some debate on that one.. Deeds do matter. Specifically, faith manifests itself in good deeds. I reserve further comment.
Come debate us at http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/
That is if yer not a scaredy-cat.
I'm out of here.
I may do that..
Regards, Jr.
It is getting late here too.
@danisnape
"I don't want to push any agenda down your throat."
Yes, it seems that you do.
"Hate crimes are an enhancement to crimes already comitted because of the nature of the crime, not just because it happened to a minority.
Let's look at it this way; you (and I mean any person) have a 1:20,000 chance of being murdered by someone. Nearly all of the time it's by someone who knows you and will 'profit' somehow from said crime.
Essentially, you know why they are murdering you."
So what? You're a murder victim and you don't receive equal justice under the law? Why not just declare us all as 3/5ths of a person while you're at it!
"Look at your own words, "if they just kept their corn-holing in their houses". Homosexuals are getting killed in excessively brutal ways by people who wish nothing more than for the elimination of homosexuality through extermination."
They're still dead. If someone kills my grandma, she's still dead. Same condition, different adjudication based on, in this case, their sexual behavior.
That's biased.. It's unconstitutional, regardless of how an activist court sees it.
The 14th is very clear on this.
Night.
"Hate crimes are an enhancement to crimes already comitted because of the nature of the crime, not just because it happened to a minority."
Hardly how it works out in practical application.
What you want, but are unable to explain in plain terms, is a two tiered system of justice to favor you and yours.
Funny nobody outside of the twelve apostles of the Momo church ever say a golden plate disclosed to them by Maroni. the Book of Mormon is one big fairy tale. I know, I read it, Pearl of Great Price too. A good novel the Book of Mormon if you like them in that vein. Nephites and Laminites, and the Laminaites are supposed to be the original Native americans. What a crock. What this have to do with gays??? I hope they expose the closet homosexuals in the Momo priesthood. More sexual abuse and incest in Utah then anywhere else in the country. One in four Utah girls have been sexually abused, and the number of boys is kept secret but you can bet it pretty close to the girls.
JHoffa wants it bad. :X LOL
Remember, the second M in Mormon is silent.
@ jhoffa the first
thanks for responding in a serious manner instead of resorting to your earlier "PENISES IN ASSHOLES! CORNHOLING!!! OMG!" banter. Maybe my praying helped.
And I'm glad you did respond to my post, but please respond to this part (which you seemed unable to counter)
"Victims of hate crimes are chosen at random. For example, a transsexual has a 1:12 chance of being brutally murdered in their lifetime here in the US. And NOT done by someone who knows them, this minority group gets targeted and killed for no 'profit' or gain. Simply put, it's a harsher punishment because of the animus behind it and the net result of such crimes is to coerce the public to your way of thinking. To put it simply, it's a type of domestic terrorism."
A greater animus must be proven for hate crimes enhancements to be placed on a sentence that a jury still has to render a guilty verdict on. The Mens Rea of the attacker is much different between a simple homicide versus what gets defined as a hate crime. Did you know that more times than not that a crime will NOT get enhanced by declaring it a hate crime?
Can you say for deaths like what happened to Matthew Shepard (tied up and left to die slowly over a few days) or Erica Keel (hit by and run over by a single car multiple times) or Maribelle Reyes (died from a lack of treatment for having HIV, clinics and hospitals refused to accept her because she was a transsexual) doesn't send out a message to the GLBT community that the rest of society would up more than happy to see you all dead and disappear?
That is the reason why enhancements to the penalties of these crimes exist. The people who perform them always see the victim as less than human, or feels some sort of twisted self-righteousness out of comitting said crime.
danisnape, Jhoffa_ sees Michelle Obama as sub-human and even justified Obama cheating on her with Sarkozy (a male!) because she has "the face of a gorilla", but he insists he isn't racist. Jhoffa_ thinks I'm sub-human because I'd take loving gay parents any day over my disfiguring Munchausen by Proxy Catholic anti-choice straight parents. He thinks Christianity is about tormenting the disabled, disfigured, homely, non-Aryan (Michelle), or intersexed and is baffled why the tormented MARJORITY is outraged.
Jhoffa, You have an alluring writing style. Whatcha doing 2nite?
So you believe that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in all humans because a women made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake in a magical garden to eat the fruit from a magical tree, which made an invisible man who lives in the sky very angry?
Fuckin idiots
jhoffa;
Please send pics. You sound like a hottie. Let's chat!
Religion is a disease that has plagued man for centuries. The Christian Telaban member jhoffa id proof.
@danisnape
Interesting that you would pick transsexuals as the focus of this..
I think we all know that their behavior plays a direct role in many of the problems they face.
1. Regardless, my point is still valid. Two victims. Same injuries. Two different levels of justice.
2. Many people are at greater risk of assault or death based on a number of factors. Demographics. Geography. Occupation. Behaviors. You name it.
Do they all get special justice too? Like I said, you may as well just pick groups and declare them 3/5ths of a person. Justice is supposed to be blind, remember?
3. In practical application, these things are applied arbitrarily and after the fact by a group of angry activists screaming for it and a legal system all to happy to divine whatever they wish by way of motivation. Without regard for the suffering or final condition of the victim.
PS: I notice you didn't address the points in my post.
My, my... You have a truck load of pathology to pack around, Mary.
I'm with the guy who said he'd even kiss a guy to piss off some religious freaks.
Let's put this in perspective for a moment.
Would Jesus pin someone to the ground, violently assaulting them for sharing a kiss?
If I pinned someone to the ground, it would be assault. Why are cops allowed to do such things to people? A couple kissing each other is FAR from a danger to society. This world needs more kindness, happiness and tenderness.
"Deeds do matter. Specifically, faith manifests itself in good deeds."
Yes, deeds do matter. Your idea of who Jesus was would never assault and pin someone to the ground for sharing a kiss with another person.
Violence is violence.
"I'm with the guy who said he'd even kiss a guy to piss off some religious freaks."
Exactly.. That is exactly your position.
Thank you for your honesty.
Hoffa the Christian telaban
Religion is a disease that has plagued man for centuries. The Christian Telaban member jhoffa is proof.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMEN, oh wait. I mean- Right. God, I hate it when I do that. Crap, broke another one of those "commandments"
I think jhoffa is really Tina Fey. This shit is hilarious!
I'm not anti gay but................do your research. Being gay is unhealthier than being a smoker. average life for a gay is 50 yrs if hey have aids 40 yrs. they suffer from eating disorders more than woman and men. 50% of all gays are currently suffering from depression and being gay used to be a mental disorder. they don't tell you that politics took it out of the DSM. Gay is a mental condition when you're ego-dystonic. so basically its ok to be gay, but the minute you call attention and doing the huge queen thing and flaunting behaviors you've become ego-dystonic. btw the same study that found out about life expectancies of gays also found out gays don't fear death when they have aids. their freedom of expressing their sexuality is the priority for gays. do your research. yeah there are normal functioning gays just like straight people. its just with so many gays with mental conditions who's gonna trust you gays? i'd like anyone to argue points with me, without gays calling me gay or straight people callin gays phagguts. i believe in the equal rights of gays but you people need to stop putting up people that make yourselves look like Bruno!
Wait, wait, what's more unhealthy being in a shitty marrage until the kids grow up and then you hate your wife that you swore to god that you would keep in good times and bad?Sounds like you straights want it both ways. The only reason gays are so fucked up is because we come into this world of hate, self-hate and repulsion. Otherwise I love being gay. And so do the straight guys I have sex with. Yeah I fuck straight guys exclusively. Pretty fun but their so fucked up they'll have my dick up their ass
"which they love by the way' But won't want to make out. Now there is self loathing.
People are BORN gay it is not a choice. Jones, the 'research' you quote was very amusing.
Thanks
LOL
they should have recreated the mormon masacres, that's what really turns on mormons
i wasn't arguing the point of when you're gay. I'm just stating what the average gay individual faces. btw that study was done here, new zealand, and amsterdam. it's not the people hate "gays" thing. amsterdam had the same rate of depression, etc as the gay hating USA even tho they are widely accepted in the netherlands. look at david. clearly ego-dystonic. since he's gay he's mad at straights so he's gonna turn everyone gay. Tiel, has a good point but i'm not arguing the origins of gays. i'm just saying there's a lot of dysfunction going on in your community more than us "breeders." this isn't the tip toe, any ignorant answer will do comment. No one here can say that's not true, gay people do live longer than smokers! that's not true, gays are just as scared of dying of disease than straight people! not true, half of gay men don't suffer some sort of depression! gays need to do something about life expectancy and mental disorder rates. gays have more work to do than blacks in the eyes of america. good luck
I think the homo's should leave the mormons alone. And I think the mormons need to leave the homo's alone. Pretty adult concept huh?
sex is like food, everyone has different tastes. The homo's are playing into Rove's hands. Kiss and rally all you want, 75% of American still find it disgusting.
I could tell you what i like and you would find it disgusting.
You could tell me what you like and I would find it disgusting. This is the beauty of "don't fucking ask, and don't fucking tell"
jhoffa has a lot of time on his hands, perhaps he should work on getting out of the closet.
he has so much repressed feelings and pent up rage it's amazing.
what an angry person. it must be really sad being you. So much hate.
@Thomas Jefferson
Of course you are aware that your namesake hated negro's?
"People are BORN gay it is not a choice. "
LOL!
So we've located that elusive faggot gene, then?
COME OUT OF YOUR CLOSET JHOFFA
Come out of your closet, jhoffa.
I see good ol' Jack-offa is up to his good ol' scoundril tricks again, promoting a non-existent God and hyping his eternal "Miracles" story and his dumb HATE. JH, there's a test already been performed that takes good STAUNCH run-of the mill homophobes like you, plunks them down in front of a TV and runs some HOT Gay porn in front of you. Then it does that with straight guys who are OK with gays. And you know what? The results show Folks like YOU wind up more turned on by the gay films than the straight folks who are OK with Gays. THAT is scientific PROOF and it is very accurate.
You are a disgrace to closet queens everywhere. Your blatancy is just a dead giveaway and your incredible knowledge, albeit somwhat limited gives you away too. You sure make Christians look like a bunch of buck-toothed idiots.
LOL! Oh my! It would appear, once again, that Raw Story's MENSA chapter is completely unable to reply with ANYTHING aside from:
1. ZOMG!1!1!! You can't prove God exists! Hu-hu.. Owr strawmen are so thhhhmart.. ke-ke-ke-.
2. If you don't like gays then ur ghey man.. hu-hu.. We're genuthes.. hu-hu.. we lerned it in cowwege. hu-hu. Boy did our parents get their moneys worth!
The SOLE exception to this is the girl attempting to discuss hate crime legislation above.
Not a very good showing for you "enlightened" liberals, is it?
Perhaps if you spent a little LESS time sitting around collecting dust, zits and excess pounds, and a little MORE time reading and expanding your mind, you would have something besides shoddy thinking and unwarranted self importance to offer? Eh?
Just a thought..
Here's why it's futile to try to reason with someone like Jhoffa:
Is it not only pointless, but counterproductive, to argue with conservatives? Study finds that conservatives, when subjected to a debunking of their beliefs, emerge from the experience more certain. The same does not hold true for liberals.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2008/09/backfire-effect
Last night I showed him mankind's morality is far superior to that of his invisible sky-daddy's.
But do you think it sunk in?
Not a chance.
He will go to his grave supporting:
1) infinite torture for finite transgressions, and
2) collective and never ending punishment for individual offenses.
"Study finds that conservatives, when subjected to a debunking of their beliefs..."
Which you did not do..
"Last night I showed him mankind's morality is far superior to that of his invisible sky-daddy's."
Morality? lol..
That's a concept you couldn't even explain.. Remember?
All you did was scream insults and nonsense, then cut & paste Mark Twain!
Please note: Pretentiousness won't anything..
Wake me up when this is over.
It's like trying to teach a rock.
Well, on second thought a rock would probably grasp that the following are immoral:
1) infinite torture for finite transgressions,
2) punishing everyone for individual offenses,
3) a blood sacrifice of your child to yourself.
You don't try to reason with fascists any more than you try to reason wtih a rabid dog.
As the son of an American executive, I grew up in Europe, surrounded by the ruins of fascism. Some of my middle school classmates had lost their grandparents to Nazi execution squads in their HOME TOWN.
Jhoffa is one of those fascists. He should be treated as the rabid dog he is.
Europeans don't have this dangerous tolerance for fascists that we have in America. We need to crack down on these people, simply as a matter of self-preservation. Remember, the Bible teaches NOT "thou shalt not kill", but rather, "thou shalt not murder". Every fascist is a murderer in waiting.
There is nothing morally or legalyl wrong with destroying mad dogs in self-defense. Self-preservation is a right we all have -- against people who talk as jhoffa does.
Okay, I'm out of the closet and having a ball.
Or two, badumbum!
So, answer the question.
Are the following moral?
1) infinite torture for finite transgressions, (i.e., hell)
2) punishing everyone for individual offenses, (i.e., Eve eats apple and the entire human race is punished in perpetuity)
3) a blood sacrifice of your child to yourself. (couldn't he have just forgiven everyone instead?)
Ralph, you made great points -- Jhoffa_ is a murderer waiting for the "legal" opportunity. Notice how he refuses to address all the medical info I listed on many threads on the fertilization and fetal development anomalies that result in INTERSEX "gay" children? Science is on the side of gays as examples of legitimate gender diversity DESIGNED BY GOD AND HIS/HER PROCESS OF SEXUAL EVOLUTION.
gay isnt a sexual evolution its a sexual retardation. meaning to impede growth in procreation. could it be god made gays cause so many people are over populating? who cares? i'm not gay and i'm gonna do what nature intended me to do which is pass my genes down the line. ok NOBODY will touch the issue of early mortality rates in gays here and abroad. NOBODY touches the issue of severe mental health issues within the gay community. this is why middle america won't accept the gay culture. just a bunch of ego-dystonic sociopaths running around demanding fair treatment. when gays get over their sexuality and realize nobody cares what you do. just don't tell everyone your sex life cause everyones sex life is personal info. do i care you have to experience rectal pain to get your rocks off? no, but i do when you make your mental illness an attribute i do. once gays get past their sexual ego and realize a clear majority of society opposes them they can work on themselves to change the image of a gays being child molesters and perverts. i feel like people think they're pokemon with all the human evolution that's been going on. news flash, we're the same humans as people in the 1400s. idiocracy in the making.
Oh Jones,
give me a fuckin break, Procreation bullshit. You people breed like cockroaches so much that we are killing the earth trying to feed all these people. But instead you cite god or aids. You wanna know why because your government wanted to "cull" the gay poplulation. How kill em with sex. But they didin't think it would spread to the straight poplulation too. Since your governement knew about this virus and had this virus in their hand since 1955 you do the math.
You act like hiv or aids is the fault of the gays I say fuck you. they were just the target. If it would have happened to white straight couples, Believe me you'd see shit hit the fan back in 82" I think they infected africa with the small pox vaccine to kill them off because all they did was fuck and starve so they culled them too. With the gays, it was the Hep vacciine B. Which was publicised directly to the gay community in "75" you do the math. 7-9 years incubation period for Aids. From Chicago, LA, San Fran, Dallas, New York. All big cities had huge explosions in HiV/Aids Like 75% all at once. Which is not possable unless you got them all togehter. And had them fuck eachother. Which doesn't really happen like that. So Don't fuckin blame us with a bunch of God bullshit lies.
I can't wait for the next Bullshit act of god you people come up with. To kill gays. What super gay syphillis? Super gay swinefucker flu? Fuckin Retarted. If I were retarted I still coulnd't believe someone telling me that Horseshit jesus story. Give me a goddamn Break.
I tell you what jonesy, put that nose of yours in that bible and go kill your kid, or sell your daughter or marry a couple of women all at once, or stone your wife. Or the other shit it tells you to do and see where you end the fuck up. Your bible won't help you then. That's for sure. Don't be a moronic hypocrite. You people cite shit when it from that stupid book to advance your own agenda when it suits you. That's all that book is good for. Otherwise all that murder, rape, killing, baby killing and fucking your own family members in the bible doesn't apply. Fuckin give me a break.
P.S.
I've never molested a child in my life, but your kid I think would be justified. Just to shut you the fuck up. And to make you finally happy you won an argument
my point exactly. i said nothing about aids or stds. guess what? gays still die 20yrs before straights without any stds. even if it were proven fact that the gov made aids for gays, it's the ego-dystonic ones that spread it cause they care more about their own sexuality than human health. i'm not invoking god into this. i'm not preaching gospel. a "normal" gay individual isn't going to have unprotected sex. they worry bout getting burned like straights. i have not called anyone a name in here. i didn't even claim anti gay. just sayin all this fuck you, you breed like roaches shows which kinda gay you are. i don't put down gays, you do that within your own community(perez). keep up the Bruno show. its sad gays can't even see their own version of a minstrel show being portrayed by radical gays.
Exactly what facts are you using that we die before straights? You can't even get an accurate count of how many gays, Bi's, transgenders, there are. What facts are you using to come to that crappy hypothosis? The bible? Not to many facts in there try looking elsewhere.
Radical Gays,
Wait, Wait. So people expressing themselves make them radical? So the Hippie movement, Anti-war movement, Women's Lib movement, Civil Rights movement were all radical? So now you have gays trying to stand up and say I pay my taxes just like the straights but don't have the same rights. My partner can't claim my child on taxes even though we share the financial reponsibility? If I were ever to get sick He'd need a special court order to come into my room? And even with that may be he'd get in or not. Where's our recourse? take it to court and have even more bigotted people rule against us because they don't have a fuckin clue what's it like to be gay? To grow up gay? To realize out of the blue that they aren't like their straight counterparts? Hey sorry, but screw that. I'd rather be radical.
reuters, you know main stream news. reuters health published an article on frisch's clearly biased study. even though it was biased reuters wasn't the only group to challenge the study but it still came out being gay shortens life extectancy by approx 20 yrs. first they said gays die at 40 with hiv/aids and 50 when healthy. it was revised to say gays live until 60 and straights until 80. go ahead google it. its not debunked. david, as a person, you have a lot of anger and hate. any person understands too much anger turns into despair and depression. being gay can make you both an angry and sad person. just understand your feelings and know they are valid but don't project them onto others. my arguements are relevant to the source article. i'm not debating if its right to be gay but i'll tell gays when they're fuckin up. when you kiss at an ultra conservative mega religious private place when you're gay expect to be thrown out and arrested. you're fuckin up if you think different. being arrested and charged are 2 different things. surprise gay white dudes, you now know how it feels to be a minority in anywhere USA.
http://www.jpands.org/vol10no3/lehrman.pdf
just a science article about homosexuality. nothing negative but a must read.
Paging my homie!
So, answer the question already!.
Are the following moral?
1) infinite torture for finite transgressions, (i.e., hell)
2) punishing everyone for individual offenses, (i.e., Eve eats apple and the entire human race is punished in perpetuity)
3) a blood sacrifice of your child to yourself. (couldn't he have just forgiven everyone instead?)
Junior, I hate to break this to you, but even those Wasilly Tweakers have to sleep sometime.
Joffa, where are you lover boi?
What a shame that all of this mudslinging is taking place. We all need to grow up and respect each other.
I used to be a very strong Mormon, married, with children (now all grown and gone). I guess that you could say that I was homophobic. I fought the gay community. I campaigned for DOMA. I claimed homosexuality was a choice. ...That is, until I finally admitted to myself that I am gay (after 27 years of marriage). Then I had a terrible time deciding what was the right thing to do, divorce my wife and live as a gay man, or keep my mouth shut and live as a straight man. It caused me so much stress that I ended up in the hospital. I didn't want to hurt my wife. I loved her then, and I love her now (despite the fact that she hates me). Nevertheless, I couldn't make her suffer through life with a gay man as her husband. I knew I couldn't give her the kind of love she both needed and deserved. That's what made me come out of the closet.
She has since lost weight, colored her hair differently, and looks better than she has in years. I am finally at peace with myself, my denial of my homosexuality being the last barrier between me and full integrity. I am hated by homophobes, but I don't care because I did what was right. I have a brilliant and wonderful partner who I love and respect. I have friends who accept me unconditionally, and love me. I belong to a culture which is dedicated to making sure that no one suffers as we have suffered, which believes in liberty and freedom for all, not just the religious right, and fights, not just for LGBT men and women, but for ALL men and women, to protect the rights and privileges of ALL. I have found them to be more open, loving, and less judgemental (except for what shoes you're wearing - LOL) than MOST of the Mormons I've ever known.
I believe that each man and woman has the right to practice their religion or set of moral values as long as it does not encroach upon someone else's religion or set of moral values. This country was founded on religious freedom. It was a haven for the persecuted, downtrodden, and those people who were used and abused by those in power. That's why the rights of all are addressed in the Constitution, not just Christians, not just Hindus or Muslims, not just Buddhists, or atheists or whites or blacks or hispanic peoples or asians, not just straight people or gay people. Now pledging allegience to a flag and a republic, "with liberty and justice for all," cannot limit who gets the liberty and justice. It must include people with whom we do not agree, just as freedom of speech must needs allow for expressions of disagreements with lifestyles, the way the government acts, etc. It is what protects us all from each other. When one religion or one point of view or one way of living is imposed upon the whole, indiscriminately, then our constitution becomes nothing but a worthless piece of paper. If you want YOUR rights protected, then you must take the responsibility to make sure that ALL peoples' rights are protected.
I have found that I was, when in denial and being homophobic, not uncomfortable with the gays' sexuality, but rather with my own. There was something wrong when I got nauseous at my wife being all sexy with me, and was only able to perform when I was thinking about making love to a man. No woman deserves that.
My question to openly homophobic people is, "Do you really want me suppressing my homosexuality and marrying YOUR daughter or YOUR sister?"
No heterosexual should ever feel sickened if a gay person makes a pass at her/him. Take it as a compliment that we think you have it all together and admire you. Even if you're not gay, it IS a compliment.
I respect your right to live according to the dictates of your conscience. Please respect mine. But also, please respect your children's rights to determine their own lives as they grow up, and love them unconditionally. Teach them to love and respect themselves. Teach them to love their children unconditionally.
Now with all that in mind, I will say that no one but the security guards in the plaza and the gay couple who kissed really know what went on that evening after the concert. I also (even though I am a gay man) say that if the gay couple knew that the plaza belonged to the Church, then they should have had enough respect to not kiss in that place, just as they would expect someone to respect them. I also say that the security guards should have said, " We understand that you may not be aware that this property belongs to the LDS Church and that Church doctrine forbids homosexual behavior. We respectfully request that you do not do not display affection here," at which point, the couple should have been respectful of that and taken it somewhere else. I can guarantee that the LDS Church does NOT enforce a "no PDA" policy among heterosexuals, because I have seen many, many heterosexual couples kiss on Temple Square. I even kissed my wife on Temple Square, and it only elicited smiles from the people around us.
It is SO easy to defuse a situation, but some (be it the guards or the couple) refuse to do so, and love the conflict, and nurture the conflict. The Church should have taken the same stance as the couple, and assumed that they did not understand, and treated the couple in a more Christ-like manner, even with the statement made by the spokeswoman.
It's such a shame that all of this mudslinging and disrespect is taking place on the part of all parties involved. I respect your right to live according to the dictates of your conscience - do you respect mine? I invoke the 11th Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Do you REALLY believe and live by that or NOT?
A couple of things I'd like to clarify --
1) I should have been clearer when I said I got nauseous when my wife got all sexy with me. That was one incident in particular, and I was horrified that I felt that way. She was always and still is a VERY sexy, beautiful woman. I'm just not into women.
2) I referred to her as my "wife" when I should have said, "ex-wife".
3) All during our marriage, I never committed adultery. I would never have done that to her, and frankly, I don't care if anyone believes me or not. I know the truth, and God knows the truth.
4) I will have a great deal of difficulty forgiving the Church for making me deny my true sexuality and therefore causing me (actually mandating me) to marry, and end up hurting my ex wife in the process.
5) My children either already knew or else suspected that I was gay, long before I did. When I told them, I got responses like, "Duh, Dad, I knew you were gay - I was waiting for YOU to figure it out." They have been and continue to be very supportive. They're all good kids.
6) Do I still believe in the Church? The doctrine and culture are deeply engrained in me, and there are parts that I still believe, but I'm having a problem with them being the "true" church and with organized religion in general. It wasn't solely my homosexuality that drove that, but the kicker was reading a talk by Boyd K. Packer called, "The Mantle Is Greater Than the Intellect", which is available through the Brigham Young University, BYU Studies website. I just felt like he was counseling educators and historians to do the opposite (regarding Church History) of what they tell the members to do as part of the repentance process).
7) I am VERY grateful to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for making me the man I am today. They took a timid boy and turned him into a strong man, able to find a way to cope with his true nature, having the courage to do what was right, and to be proud of who and what I am, and to have the courage to have complete integrity. I've learned so many very great things from them, and applied them in my own life.
-- Oh, one other thing. As far as child molestation goes, there cannot reasonably be any clear conclusion as to the real percentage of homosexuals who are pedophiles. As I have looked over the data, most of the studies are skewed one way or another by various devices. It appears that most men who are pedophiles and prey upon boys or teenage boys are men who live as heterosexuals. The religious right defines a homosexual man as one who has even one time experimented with another man, yet have determined that they much prefer the company of women. I would be wary of ordinary websites dealing with the subject, pro or con, but rather use Google Scholar and read the peer-reviewed articles. They are far more reliable. The non-scholarly websites are far less objective, and are biased one direction or another, depending on who puts them up. My own belief is that pedophilia, like rape, has little to do with sexuality, and far more to do with power. A powerless man may feel more powerful if he can sexually dominate another male. This is only a theory on my part. You, the reader, would have to do some very serious study to come to any kind of conclusion.