You've not heard the last from some 0f the only Americans prosecuted for torture under the Bush administration.
Charles Graner and Lynndie England, who were both made famous for applying the Bush administration's torture techniques to prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, are pleading their case to the media and preparing appeals.
Graner remains locked up at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., about halfway through a 10-year prison sentence for detainee abuse, assault and dereliction of duty. His lawyer said this week that he is drafting appeals arguments centered largely on the revelations in the memos and a newly released congressional investigation into the interrogation practices.
President George W. Bush "was so disappointed in what happened, yet the whole time he knew what was going on," said Graner, answering questions through his wife, Megan, who also worked at Abu Ghraib. He is the only one of about a dozen soldiers tried for abuses at the prison who remains incarcerated.
Graner and other defendants -- including Lynndie R. England, who was photographed holding a naked detainee by a leash -- were blocked by military judges from calling senior U.S. officials to the stand at their trials in 2004 and 2005. The government would not acknowledge any policy or procedure that could have led to what the world saw in the photographs.
-- Stephen C. Webster
Our system of government remains broken as long as the people that compelled our soldier's to torture are free.
Laws that are not equally applied are no laws at all. They just another form of tyranny.
screw them they deserve to be in prison. they could have said no like true principled soldiers would if they remembered their oath they take to the constitution.
i say deny their appeal.
I've always felt that George Bush &Dick Cheney needed a Scapegoat and who could be better suited than these reservists who everyone knows were not the ones that perpetrated the Systematic abuses of Abu Grahib. All of their superiors had to be aware of it and also had to condone, aid and abet, if not outright order it! Yet they had no adequate defense?
Let the dominos fall. The real criminals would be the COMMANDER and his lackeys, and we all know who that fool is.
What was the punishment for the Japanese who we found guilty of waterboarding?
Same should apply to the people who ordered these crimes against humanity. The sooner that happens the sooner the country will regain its credibility as being against torture.
I am a veteran and served proudly, but I would warn any person considering a military career to understand their rights as a civilian vs. those rights they will have once they've been sworn in.
For any military grunt the biggest nightmare in the world, would be arriving at a unit; to find torture is standard operating procedure. Marines and soldiers trained to lay down their lives for their brothers in arms, but rather to then be called on, to rat them out… and then to suffer the full wrath and furriery the Bush Administration. Well I can understand how they would just snap a few pictures and pretend it was OK.
Lynndia England maybe should go free but it is definitely time to jail those who gave the orders.
Yet the bastards hawked "Support the troops". They are nothing but sniveling cowards.
Rick@3...
There were a few Japanese guards who were executed after WWII for Waterboarding, yes.
Are you suggesting that we do the same to England and Graner, as they were the ones 'doing the work'?
Somehow, I think not: I interpret your statement as: We need to go after those who ordered the abuse with the same zeal as we prosecuted those who executed the orders.
Remember also: Graner and England are not innocent. Just becuase they were following orders does not absolve them of what they did (another WWII trial, Nuremberg dispensed with that argument for the Nazis). What they did was immoral and illegal, AND IT WAS THEIR SWORN DUTY AS SOLDIERS TO DISOBEY SUCH ORDERS. They followed their orders, and so are as guilty as those who issued the orders.
Now to get those who issued the orders...the Officers, and their superiors in the DOD and Presidency, and hold them accountable for what THEY did...create these orders that put otherwise honest people in legal and moral jeopardy in time of War.
C. Graner should write a paper about his own learning program of the torture technics, "detainee softening" or whatever name it was presented to him. From slapping, punching, harming to the whole range of sexual humiliations.
Whatever good dispositions he eventually prooved at it, we hope to understand how he himelf was brainwashed to do that, and how, out of what set of ideas and incentives and false links to 9/11, he was lead to de-humanize his Iraqi victims in order to perform… his "job". And if any physician ever objected !
His smiles are difficult to accept, but anyway didn't he have to be out of his mind to do what was asked. Didn't he have to build some kind of professional insensivity ?
This is no excuse, but we need understanding, for man's sake. Cause bad apples are still apples.
check my post on Lynndie Enngland at
sorry, the post, in english, is at : dav-let.dailykos.com//
Everyone. And I mean everyone that tortured or ordered torturing should be jailed.
Every service man and woman knows the Uniform Code of Military Justice. And in obeying an unlawful order or one that goes against the conscience. There were some that did say no.
These seven or eight that are in jail should be. But if Obama is not going to investigate and indict the ones that produced the orders should be jailed along with the soldiers that were so ignorant of the law, but still had a conscience and could have refused.
That is the point. Military or not. Lower ranked or not. They still had a conscience and could have said No. If the men that produced the memos, and the administration that had it done, are going to be free, then so should the ones currently in prison. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Does anyone remember the Vietnam war? The incident with Lt.Calley? He and his men were ordered to fire upon villagers who were unarmed. They killed them all. And all but one man in the unit refused. And all but the one man ended up in jail. It was the Mai Lai massacre. (excuse spelling) The one soldier tried to stop them and could not. But he had a conscience and ended up the only one not in military prison.
Just say NO. It takes courage to go against what others are willing to do. Some have it and some do not. The illegality of this war made what happened somehow inevitable. From the top down, it was wrong and everything that cascaded down from that one big illegal beginning was like a dirty tide of water. It sweeps away decency in the flood.
63 years later we are involved in another possibility of a Nuremberg like trial with the exception of the United States being in the docket. It's interesting neo-conservative commentators stressed the United States does not torture considering the Vietnam War had such inventions such as the Bell Telephone Hour, attaching battery wires to testicles and then providing shock, and a few others since they weren't "humans." This was typified by the My Lai Massacre and correlates to todays revelations about the Bush Administration. Basically if you can't win, then kill as many as possible thus dehumanizing the entire population.
As a Veteran, I am appalled by this and can only state this type of behavior only places the American Serviceperson in greater jeopardy if they are captured. Secondly, servicepersons simply stating "I was only following orders," does not relieve their guilt. Those at Abu Ghraib may be able to downgrade their sentences, but they cannot absolve themselves of complete guilt. Their actions were despicable and they could have refused to participate even though it would have meant possible punishment and disdain. Interrogation does not require torture when personnel are adequately trained and have intellect. Those who aren't resort to sordid means to satisfy superiors.
The only way to elevate our moral standing among ourselves and the world is to prosecute those high level officials including the President for their flaunting of domestic and international law. Once again, we must show no one, absolutely no one, is above the law. To do otherwise is to trampled an already ruffled Constitution and prove we are a nation of occasional law when the situation needs it.
Torture is the end result of this countries decline into corporate fascism. Our government has been taken over and is run by banks and special interests including the military industrial complex. Our government has been privatized and it used as a profit making enterprise for the ruling elite. In fact they are at war with "we the people" attacking our rights and liberties as surely as the Brits attacked us before we became independent.
Our constitution and treaties were put in place to secure the rights of a people and free us from tyranny and oppression ... today the banks can charge 30% interest and change any agreement with the consumer at any time ... meanwhile our taxes go to pay back the interest debt on the Federal Reserve bankers loan to us.
Once you have reduced a people to consumers and then use then like cattle to invade and kill others ... torture is not that far behind ... we lost our country in a hostile take over by an enterprise of the ruling elite and corporate fraud.
The battered and dead bodies of the tortured human beings are the evidence of a systemic breakdown of our core values and of our constitution. Nothing short of a total purge and prosecution of all parties involved including Bush but extending also to members of congress and private sector co-conspirators, will save us all from total ruin.
Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"?
If those issuing torture orders aren't prosecuted, maybe the troops who carried it out should be paid $1,000 per day like the 'contractors.'
eah uhmm, but graner was not in the CIA, and those memos are about the CIA not about the military.
furthermore, graner was not 'reluctantly following orders'... he was enjoying doing what he did, and actively manipulating and recruiting inexperienced people (england) into helping him.
its fuckall nonsense
There are perhaps 200 to 300 individuals that have enough power, money, and influence to manipulate world events .... the execution of their plans are carried out by US presidents, bankers, and families that have vast wealth beyond anything imaginable. If their goal was to bring about equality and prosperity throughout the world nothing that we see today would exist ...
Their goal is power and maintaining it. The only thing that can explain why the world allows torture and slaughter of our fellow human beings is that forces are in place that seek to continue chaos and destruction. It's not the so called terrorists that threaten the world ... it's these few controlling elite who are hidden from view and operate in secret behind governments who have no use for human rights or liberties.
George Bush and even Dick Cheney are puppets that were installed to achieve the goals of the shadow elite. This is the real world ... the one where our constitution and human rights are nothing more than a piece of paper. The real world where the biggest accomplishment for the average American is to get some kind of job and learn to shop so we can get good at being on the treadmill.
Time will show us who Obama really is ... given that the game is incredibly rigged and ferociously guarded by these century old interests ... it will be something to see if he is in fact the real thing or just another puppet.
My guess is that he might be the real thing trying to work within a globally corrupt and threatening system. I am not sure that it matters ... as it is we might be able to exist for a time but we are certainly not heading towards any utopian society or world view. Just the opposite if the shadow elite are not exposed and forcibly removed.
What kind of person, let alone the leaders of the United States let a kid take the fall and go to prison. I don't agree with many things that the Bush Administration have done. This is a whole different level. I see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld , Rice as nothing but cowards for letting a young girl go to prison for the very things they ordered.
@ surgethis : it would be easy to tell you : "here you come again". While I agree with parts of what you denounce, may I ask how do you know if «They» are so secret about it, are you one of them ?
Bush, Cheney, Rummy and Karl were no puppets ! And although the compassionate side of their discourses was clearly double talk hypocrisy, they went blatantly out front on the authoritarian side.
Authoritarian power speeches are typically blatant in order to impress our mind and reduce us into fear and self inflicted censure.
i.e. in France now, the immigration minister said he is "not the fascist of Europe", and there is a debate going about wether a speech the president held in Dakar was racist or not. We can debate, but the simple fact we ARE debating wether the governement is racist or fascit is unbelievable ! (unheard since… the 40's or 60's)
I wouldn't answer those questions quickly, but just wondering is enough bad news.
On May 13 Condi Rice who fronted for Bush on torture and other things not so nice, will officially open the University of Calgary's new School of Public Policy. There is a petition against this American war criminal coming to Canada and being honoured. Please endorse and forward:
http://www.petitionsite.com/1/illegal-war-is-not-policy
What can I say! Bush bought himself a ranch in Paraguay and Stand Down Cheney a condo in Dubai!
Just to wait a multiple of 4 years and …come back ?
Its still possible for these creeps to surprise and disgust me with their cynicism and dishonesty--Bush stood up and said these young people were just a few bad apples, when he, Cheney and their neo-con pals knew all along, that they were following the orders of their superiors and "private contractors" and the CIA to abuse Iraqis.
That's about as low as a snake like Bush can get--he silently watched these people to go off to jail for years, knowing all along that their actions were part of his secret torture program. A pathological liar, a disgusting human being.
Obama , Pelosi , Reid the democrat are just as guilty as Bush and Company if they left Bush and his criminals off..
The constitution demands that the investigation and prosecution must go on..
They do not have the right or authority to not have or stop these investigations... If this is not prosecuted then our constitution , laws , democracy , rights have been flushed down the toilet....
For Obama to keep stating that we should forget the past and go forward is a lot of BS.
Just who is pulling Obama and the others chains..
Rick
"What was the punishment for the Japanese who we found guilty of waterboarding?"
We hung Tojo and Yamashita.
And Bush is guilty of more than just water boarding.
Some of the detainees died under torture. That's murder.
carol h - #10: "Only one man was convicted for his actions at My Lai, the unit's commander, William Calley. He was sentenced to life in prison with hard labor, but the great humanitarian, Richard M. Nixon, granted Calley a lot more mercy that the lieutenant had granted the villagers of My Lai, and commuted the sentence."..........
from a Google search.
i fail to see why these two should remain in prison, as long as cheney, rumsfeld, bush, and a multitude of others remain free. if these people are actually prosecuted, good for the US.
if the right-wingers go into a tailspin . . . so what?
if they threaten to take to the streets and intimidate people . . . so what?
if there is some type of major disruption . . . so what?
if they want to fuck up the united states . . . so what?
if some states want to leave the union . . . so what?
Let them all bray!
It is my understanding that the lower level Japanese convicted of torture went to jail and the instigators were hung.
As a Marine Corps NCO veteran, I am sickened at what took place at Abu grahib.
There are no excuses for dereliction of duty, torture, sadism. Graner was well aware of the UCMJ laws he was breaking and yet he derived pleasure from torturing his charges including busting them up and sewing them up for his own disgusting entertainment. England, besides being a "barracks whore" is simply a monster in uniform. Both should have received life sentences for their crimes. All of them should have been prosecuted, every last swinging dick and dick-less in the prison.
Aside from the obvious, American servicemen and women can look now forward to the same or worse treatment in captivity as the criminal Bush/Cheney administration pissed on the Geneva Conventions. Amerika may never regain any type of moral high-ground as a result of this wanton criminal activity, excused and swept under the rug by Army "officers" and DOD officials. Fact of the matter is there is NO leadership present during this illegal war. This is what happens when orders from Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rumsfeld/Betrayus are imposed on recruiters to lower the standards into the shitter, trolling the prisons for recruits. The Army is the bottom of the barrel, allowing felons into their ranks. This is incredible, and the recruiters should face charges of treason.
They should all be tried, condemned and executed, including all the officers and NCO's involved. Unless these animals are prosecuted, we are doomed to become a failed State where torture, lies and cover-ups are revered more than our Constitution.
Burn in hell, Graner, England, right along with the rest of the toothless, inbred Army scumbags that infest our Armed Forces.
Same goes for the Marines. We have a massive field-day to perform, and it will take years to weed the scum from our ranks.
Robert S. Finnegan
United States Marine Corps
seanews1@yahoo.com
Jakarta, Indonesia
62-21-829-5656
The past administration did horrible evil things, broke the law and desecrated our constitution, our flag and our American way of life and beliefs.
The present administration is OBLIGATED by law to investigate, and prosecute those involved.
It is not a CHOICE Obama has. It is the LAW to investigate. To not do so is subjecting himself to be investigated, impeached, and prosecuted.
I do hope Holder advises him of this.
I do hope the AMERICAN people will force an investigation. We cannot stand by while Spain or some other country does our job. We, in the eyes of the rest of the world are scum now thanks to the past administration.
I am sure that many of the sociopaths that have been in the Military are now border patrol agents torturing law abiding American citizens while rivers of contraband go and illiegal aliens go unabated ( unless the right fix is in). Torturing people in the military gives these degenerate thugs a skill they can learn when they get out
thats how america runs the workers get fucked
Enlisted personnel don't have the authority to interpret what is or isn't legal-but their officers do and did.
That said, Grainer is scum of the earth...
Whether Granier should have "just said no" is not the point. When he was tried for his actions, the military prohibited him from proving that he was acting in accordance with official policy. He deserves a new trial at which the whole story should be explored.
I'm sorry, they were given an unlawful order. While I do believe they should be given some latitude, they are not innocent.
These hillbilly "soldiers" deserve the jail time they got. This is what happens when the majority of our military consists of a bunch of inbred high school dropouts. I say let the trash rot in jail and throw Bush and Cheney in there with them.
Roger, allow me to point out the entire deployment was an unlawful order...
We could stop the Darfurs and the Rawandas in a heartbeat by holding our own leaders responsible for their actions. Indeed, we will likely never stop them any other way.
It is the most despicable brand of coward that hides from war when it is their time to fight and sends other Americans to their deaths so carelessly. It is the same dispicable brand of coward that orders actions, and when those following their orders are caught, uses them as scapegoats and publicly castigates them for following their orders. This is the cowardice of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.
If we executed Japanese soldiers for the same type of actions ordered by these men, then we certainly should use the courts to apply justice equitably.
The crimes of these men goes far, far beyond torture. By most independent studies published in the Lancet and other publications, this needless war has cost the lives of over a half a million Iraqi women and children. Why are charges of murder or at least manslaughter not appropriate?
It is reassuring to me that Americans seem totally unwilling to allow these criminals to get away with their actions. We need to be just as willing to consider Obama and the other political leaders as accomplises if they do not bring these criminals to justice.
NO new trial for this Marine!!, he should just be released, with a writen apology from the prevoius (liar)President and vp, should be honorably Discharged with full pay plus interest for time spent in lock up, plus damages and full medical for life.
dexter
Graner is Army scum, you fucking idiot, and you are even lower than him you neocon, toothless, inbred redneck fuck.
Robert S. Finnegan
United States Marine Corps
Jakarta, Indonesia
62=21-829-5656
Right, Ninepipes, and while we're at it, why don't we forgive all Iraqi and Vietnam Vets convicted of committing atrocities...issue mea culpas for Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo...sorry, you're dead, but we forgive you. Point being, Graner along with his teammates as well as the CIA/Private Security Companies committed heinous acts in the name of the USA fully sanctioned by their superiors. Military personnel are ingrained from basic training on of their right to REFUSE orders contravening UMCJ, the Geneva Convention or other mandates.
I would suggest you review the pictures, Ninepipes, and justify why they would receive all those benefits you mentioned while Iraqi parents, et. al., grieve for their dead or ravaged love ones. The idea was not to extract information at Abu Ghraib, but to degrade human beings to the lowest level. A majority of those being held were petty criminals; not even terrorists, but that didn't stop the mental, physical and sexual abuse. The dark side of our mind took over and All Americans share the guilt.
God forbid if any American GIs are captured in the future for the same justifications will be used against us. And that is the legacy of the Bush/Cheney Cabal; and those who endorsed their primieval sadistic policies.
Graner and his ilk should not be excused for their sadism, but serve a sentence commensurate with their crimes. Prosecutions should be extended up the ladder to all who participates so this cancer can be excised once and for all. To do otherwise would be to submit to the barbaric nature of our society and to do that means casting a nation of laws to the side.
If America holds all those who had any involvement, at any level, accountable for such acts the World will follow them...
This would be the greatest light ever shone on the world and all would truly know that America is the land of the free...
before this occurs the 'Ones who know' see Americans as slaves....
Shine on America and take the dream back from the Darkness.
I think we should take all the soldiers who learned torture techniques in Iraq and turn them loose on the American rich. Can you imagine John Thain being waterboarded? He'd be pukin' water in every million dollar trash can in the room