Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn't torture.
It didn't turn out that way. "Mancow," in fact, lasted just six or seven seconds before crying foul. Apparently, the experience went pretty badly -- "Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop," according to NBC Chicago.
"The average person can take this for 14 seconds," Marine Sergeant Clay South told his audience before he was waterboarded on air. "He's going to wiggle, he's going to scream, he's going to wish he never did this."
Want more stories like this? Check out the front page of RawStory.com.
Mancow was set on a 7-foot long table with his legs elevated and his feet tied.
"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "
The upshot? "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
"Absolutely. I mean that's drowning," he added later. "It is the feeling of drowning."
"If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said.
The 42-year-old radio host is no stranger to controversy. In 2005, he was maligned for saying that then-Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean was "vile," "bloodthirsty," "evil" and "should be kicked out of America."
Watch him be waterboarded in the following video:
And watch his response here:
Related: Jesse Ventura says he'll waterboard Sean Hannity until he praises Obama.
-John Byrne
no fucking duh?!
What is it about these people that they can't put two and two together and have to actually experience a disaster (i.e. global warming, the horrors of war, economic collapse, and yes...waterboarding) before they take it seriously? Worse yet, their folly involves not only them, but the rest of us on this planet. Grow up, republicans, for the love of God, grow up.
Take the perpetrators to the Hague!!!!
Video or it didn't happen
Wonder if Hannity is relieved, thankful, or feeling tough, now?!
The Conservative lasted only half the time of the average person. That sounds about right. Conservatives are all talk. In the heat of battle they fold quickly.
Typical pussy republican, all tough until the actual shit hits the fan. Then they cry like a baby.
He's probably in favor of the Iraq war, a regular cheerleader.
Maybe Mancow (who is an absolute jerko) can inspire his fellow narrow minded peers to try and outdo him. I tip my hat to him for doing this and admitting the truth. It isn't that we as a nation don't want the truth out of conspirators against our nation, or to punish those who deserve it. The issue is that we are a nation of laws who bad a revolution to overthrow tyranny, and we lose our essence and basic principles upon which we were founded. Justice should be served. Absolutely. We have always strived to do just that but in a civil fashion. We can't serve as a beacon, inspiration or a leader if we stoop to the
tactics of those who plot and war against us. I hope Mancow's endeavor serves as an example to all whose minds are narrow or closed, and that they THINK about things a little more.
Next up...paging Mr. Hannity...Mr. Sean Hannity...please report to the "Enhanced Interrrogation" room. Uh, Mr. Hannity, PLEASE respond! Is there a Sean Hannity in the building?...
waterboard Cheney and ,and see how long he last
Oh, god, thank you, Raw Story. I haven't laughed so hard in weeks. I've sent the link to every conservative torture loving idiot I know.
It's great when these morons get a taste of their own medicine. Now, on to Dick Cheney!
when is he going to volunteer for the genital slashing?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. What an idiot. He can't appreciate the distinction between torture and "enhanced interrogation techniques." Too bad they can't waterboard Limbaugh, whether he volunteers for the gig or not.
Just because he said it's torture doesn't mean he still doesn't want it done to people like Zarqawi.
We executed Japanese officers after WWII on the grounds they committed torture when they waterboarded US soldiers. If it was torture then it is torture now. Pretty simple. On the other hand nobody will ever be prosecuted for any of this, so everybody might as well stop talking about it. Given nothing will ever be done about it the whole thing is a waste of time.
Darue: He can't.
what an absolute conservative puss!
Why do conservatives hate facts, statistics, evidence and reality. Let's waterboard the rest of these cretins, starting with the entire Bush Administration and then head on over to Fox News, with a pit stop at Rush Limbaugh's and Ann Coulter's snake holes. I also vote for Jesse Ventura to be the emcee!
You want video Arty, follow the link contained in the article.
Sure, Muller may be a flat minded idiot in general, but props to the guy for being willing to try it, and after going through it, for having the balls to admit he was wrong.
Sean Hannity could use some of those balls...
By the way, the "interrogators" did more than just waterboard. Next week Mancow should have his genitals cut at with a small knife - see if he thinks THAT'S torture too. Everybody's focusing on waterboarding, which of course is torture, but they did other much worse things also. Once it all comes out people will feel really disgusted and shamed by what they did in our name. We need a Special Prosecutor appointed to investigate!
dave: yeah, republicans are real pussies. You mean almost everyone in the military keeping you safe? I bet you're a banker with nothing better to do then sit around all day, playing with your dick and ruining our economy.
Republicans and dems and everyone, aren't pussies. Hippies are pussies. I hate that america keeps trying to put everyone in one group... "All Republicans are pro-life".. no they aren't. "All dems are morons", no again.
"dave's is a faggot".. well I can't argue with them on that topic.
God, I wish I could have been the one waterboarding him. He would have broken the record of 43 seconds set by a Mujahadim General if I would have been allowed to secure his head. Hey Limbaugh! Want to try it you fat coward? I'll help you break the record and you can show what a man you are. I also wish that I could email this to some friends in the military. They'd wet their pants reading this.
theWalrus, they are focusing on waterboarding because they thought they could lighten the blow with words like "simulated drowning" and other fucktardery. It's kind of hard to blunt "walling" other than to say "a plywood wall", but you can still imagine splinters and blood and concussions.
The fecal smearing, standing naked for hours on end, rapes, sleep deprivation.. these are things that can bring seriously negative images to mind, and so are being ignored.
Just think about how we can't let "those photos out" because they would incite people... the very dull don't have very good imaginations, so they can't "understand" what's going on.. "a little water up your nose.. you know, like when you dive in the pool and get a little splash up there.. no biggy".. quite a bit different than drowning and having a heart attack from panic.
Coward Mancow, has cow, throws cow.
I have little hope of him "throwing in the cow" on his stupid assertions.
So, when is inhumannity gonna step up to the plate, making the same assinine statement?
I hope Hannity follows suit.
"Video or it didn't happen"
Arty Vandelay
Birth certificate or you're an illegitimate bastard.
Uh, Mr. lick my nuts, you do see the inherit irony of this, "Hippies are pussies. I hate that america keeps trying to put everyone in one group..."
don't you?
Please don't equate Torturer's with man made global warming skeptics. If the Govt' said it. It is probably a lie. You will see things my way when you are my age. sadly.
[...] H/T Raw Story [...]
Time to round up the Cheney war criminals and start the trials. Time for prison and a little butt-boy time for the worst traitors this Nation has ever seen.
Hannity probably just wet his pants when he was called on his cowardice. It amazes me that Republicans worship cowards and traitors.
[...] talk-show host decided to disprove the water boarding question by doing it … he lasted all of 7 seconds — and changed his mind about it being, simply, ‘unpleasant.’ Every time we see a [...]
They are always the cowards who never served, talk big and tough, and know absolutely nothing about what they say. They are just like the five deferment coward Dick Cheney...those reichwingnut heroes.
It took a fair amount of ingenuity here but I am pretty sure this is the outlook many of you have: You want to end torture by torturing those that don't share your view of the world. That's different, but ok... So then lets also stop everyone from killing animals too by killing those people that kill animals! Or kill all the animals so that the people who kill animals can't kill anymore! or... This is confusing, lets cut gov't spending by spending more! and lets end the war by investing more money and more troops! and let's punish the companies that robbed us of our money by giving them more of it! Yes, I think I finally got it. Whatever you oppose you actually support! Great. Well I "oppose" all of you killing yourselves...
[...] The upshot? "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture." Mancow has my respect, not only for practicing what he preaches, but also to admit when he is wrong. Too bad Hannity is not the same way. It seems that Mancow has more honesty in his little finger than Hannity has in his whole body. I want to see what the hyperpartisans are going to say now. Are they going to accept this, or has Mancow magically just become a Liberal jihadist who hates America? Article is here. [...]
I hope all liberals die painful deaths. They should all be waterboarded...
To Mr. Lick his nuts,
Stupid is as stupid does. And you does Big Time!
Bleeding hearts!! If they are a high level terrorist leader, then I have no mercy for them. The average henchman that knows nothing should not really be interogated. Do what needs to be done if they have knowledge of a specific target or operation.
If your kid was at the mall and the mall has been taken over by terrorists. They have one guy that knows where a bomb is inside there or knows a weak link in the operation. Give a parent a table fullof carpenter tools and what would you do to save your kid? I have no limit. I would use every tool on the table if it meant I oculd save my kid as well as countless others.
Solve the nation debt - Waterboard on PPV each of the Torture Aplogizing wingnuts that appear on national TV and Radio.
Rambo,
When did you get out of the jungle? Sounds like the fever got to ya.
To Bill, the toolman.....
What if after torturing your "suspect", you used his/her information to go to the wrong place, which resulted in your kid being mutilated. What say you then? People tortured will say anything to have it stop.
I can admire a man who puts his nose and throat where his mouth is, even if with a relief toy in his hand. What's the max time allowed the military claimed, 20 minutes each time? I wonder how you can do a guy 6 times a day for 31 days like they claimed did on that Mohammad guy? I wonder if he ate for that month or swallowed his own vomit all the time.
When you die you experience the panic and pain of death only once and then it's all over.
With waterboarding, you experience the panic and pain of death EVERY TIME it's done to you.
Of course it's torture -anyone who thinks it isn't is an idiot.
How do you think they got all those girls to confess to being witches in Salem? You think they really were witches? "dunking" only differs from waterboarding in the equipment used -the effect and the result are the same.
That's great, but I think this torture debate should be put off until Obama ends the war.
Bill: "Give a parent a table fullof carpenter tools and what would you do to save your kid?" - Save your kids from what retard? What are you going to build, crossing flags for your local crosswalk? Your child is about a 10,000 times more likely to die from a malignant neoplasms of the anus, you're a fucking moron.
So I take it you must be a crossing gaurd, paramedic, doctorm or nurse, or somehow involved in saving the lives of the countless other children you mentioned. Maybe you should hit up an anti-war protest, the troops bombed a big group of kids to death just last week asshole. But you didn't mean those kids, did you retard?
With retards like you, you have no problem murdering children in the name of saving your own, who aren't even threatened. Sounds like your death would help save lives and your hokey rationalizations for torture are just that.
Sean Hannity, where art thou? Olberman's thousand dollar a second challenge still stands. And be sure to bring your DD214, after all you are the bad ass of the nation. Wait..........you do have your DD214 don't you? Wussy
Is Mancow on speed or coke? Imagine how much worse it would have been for mancow if it were conducted in a dark, cold room by a bunch of liberals instead of a warm office filled with conservative douche bags.
Awesome! Debate killer!
This is too funny! I love it when CONservatives fold like Japanese cars!
I'm laughing so hard!!!
Mancow is like most CONservatives...just another little girl! Get over your childhood, Holmes!!!
Oh why, why, why could this not have been Glen Beck? Or better yet, those fucking morons on Fox and Friends who seem to think this FIB Mancow is funny...
Hey Libs. If waterboarding is torture and torture is always wrong, why do you all want to use torture on conservatives like Hannity, Rush and Beck? Are conservatives worse than terrorists?
That is the problem with you people. Like Obama, you despise conservatives (fellow Americans) and feel compassion for those that would like to see this country nuked into the dark ages.
It's all a big political football to you guys. You could care less about the safety of our soldiers, which has been compromised by this administrations reckless vendetta against the Bush administration. Maybe these torture allegations would be appropriate once our boys are out of danger, but they certainly aren't appropriate now.
You people will be the downfall of this once great nation.
What an idiot.
Do you need to chop off your toe to know it hurts like hell?
[...] Via RAW STORY... Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn't torture. [...]
Next - Hannity!
Make a pledge to make sure the troops benefit when Hannity finally does his 6 seconds:
http://www.waterboardhannityforcharity.com/
Hey Eric, Hannity put the torture stigma on himself when he agreed to be waterboarded for charity and then kept quiet on the matter, when it was offered.
"Liberals" don't feel compassionate about terrorists, we kill them in WAR!
Conservatives want to bring the dark ages and its methods to our nation.
"You could care less about the safety of our soldiers" .............Hey Eric where's your DD214, have you earned it yet?
Eric uses a very typical conservative gambit: when you're losing the argument, just make shit up.
Bill: So wanting to live up to the laws of this country makes me a bleeding heart? Wanting to live up to the traditions of what this country has always stood for makes ma a bleeding heart? Then so be it.
You, sir, are a coward who would sell out his country at the first opportunity. For the record, there has NEVER been such a made for TV situation like you describe, and we tortured people just the same. Your scenario exists nowhere but in the minds of those who don't know what they are talking about. You would throw out everything that this country has EVER stood for to live down to your lowest fears.
Let me ask you this: In your scenario, you already know that the "attack" is eminent: How do you know that? Did you have to torture someone to get that information? Or did you get it through some other means? And if you did get it through other means, then why not just continue with those? My question makes just as much sense as your scenario. They are BOTH fictitious.
You, sir, need to stop watching 24 and thinking it has anything to do with reality. It doesn't. And making up things that belong on TV as ENTERTAINMENT doesn't make you "tough", it makes you foolish if you believe these things are real. You have been listening to people like Hannity and Limbaugh so long that you don't have a single thought of your own left.
You no doubt think of yourself as a proud American. But I suggest to you that if you throw out everything that we have believed in for over 200 years purely out of fear, then you are NOT an American at all. You don't have the slightest idea of what it MEANS to be an American. It means that we stand for the rule of law, not vigilante machismo. We stand for justice, not torture. We stand for the rights of all to be free from the tyranny of such conditional morality. Just like the rest of you right wingers, you confuse belief in our American ideals as being weak. I've heard it all my life. I want to follow the law, and you people call em weak because of it. I suggest to you that it is YOU who is the weak one. You don't believe in anything at all, and that makes you TRULY weak.
And that from this bleeding heart of mine, which has more courage in it's own ideals than you will ever know.
Eric said:
"Hey Libs. If waterboarding is torture and torture is always wrong, why do you all want to use torture on conservatives like Hannity, Rush and Beck? Are conservatives worse than terrorists?"
Simple answer, sir.
We want to use torture on torture deniers. If they are willing to acknowledge that waterboarding is - in fact - torture, and that torture is wrong; then we have no wish to waterboard Hannity, Rush and Beck.
Understand?
Ух ты, мне понравилось!
Now multiply that by 184 times... in one month.
The United States of Torture: It's official. How can you bear to remain America pals? Surely you should be emigrating in disgust and despair. Because to remain is to provide passive acquiesce, even support to the American Inquisition. Obama should have placed Cheney under arrest by now. He’s already confessed to authorizing torture on national television. What more do you need? A signed confession?
Eric: You people really just don't get it, do you? It's the very fact of this type of behavior OF the last administration that has been the biggest recruiting tool that Al Queda ever had! It's YOUR type that CAUSE the problem. You aren't the cure for anything in this. It's been the fact that we HAVE tortured that makes our men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan LESS safe.
No, sir, thanks to YOUR type, there is no country LEFT to destroy. You people did a pretty complete job of that all on your own.
Read my post to Bill. It applies just as much to you as to him.
[...] "If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said. Source: The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... A video of the waterboarding is in the source. Finally someone actually voluntarilly gets [...]
In the words of the immortal Frank Zappa, "the torture never stops". This little KidCow couldn't last 5 seconds. That wasn't torture. Having ur balls sliced daily and your kids ass-raped in front of you, repeated beatings and humiliation, electric shock, sleep deprivation, heavy metal crap blaring in your cell all hours of the day; now that's torture.
[...] Jump to Comments Maybe Sean Hannity will take up Keith Olbermann’s offer now. From the Raw Story, Chicago radio host Erich “Mancow” Muller decided he’d get himself waterboarded [...]
We need to get to the truth about this as fast as possible.... we must water board the war criminals responsible for this... starting with Cheny
[...] The Raw Story
Wait, wait! This loudmouthed, trashing-talking rightwing punk only lasted half the time the average person would last? I am so let down. With all the constant blustering and shittalking he does, I thought he was the second coming of Superman.
Please, oh please, get Hannity to do it. I'll make a contribution to a fund for that purpose. Except, in his case, he can't quit when he wants to.
May be all you liberals should have lost loved ones in 9/11 like i did. Then you would have a different toon.
[...] "If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said. Source: The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... A video of the waterboarding is in the source. Finally someone voluntarilly getting waterboarded. [...]
C'mon, Hannity, man up!
Now it is Sean Hannity's turn.
This was not waterboarding. Where was the cloth over his mouth?
Video, hello. I'll believe it happened when I see it on youtube.
to Dave,
I agree with some of your reasoning regarding putting people in a group and slapping a label on them like hippies, liberals, etc... except republicans who are just rhetoric. For states rights until they control the levers of federal govt, lower spending except when they have control.....
God, what a bunch of whankers.
Repubs are chickenhawks....at least this guy mancow had the guts to actually live up his dare and then admit that he was wrong....it's torture.
Hannity the coward is still holding out and not even mentioning that a charity could really benefit from his being waterboarded. Olberman offered 1000.00 per second. Hannity the great american coward!
popurls.com // popular today...
story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com...
Regardless of whether its torture or not, I say go ahead and do it. It didn't kill them provides valuable information. Placating these people and offering them roses and McDonalds isn't going to get them to talk. Liberals should be thanked for tempering the right, but we don't live in a utopian society. I think Liberals are idealists while republicans are realists. Probably somewhere in the middle is the right line.
What would have been ideal is the CIA doing this without the whole world finding out. Sometimes state secrets need to remain state secrets. I don't care what they do as long as the stop flying planes into buildings and setting off bombs in my country. This has been effective for the last 8 years, and if it continues to be effective, I say let the terrorists drink some more of our water.
This Pussy didn't even get the real thing!
His hands weren't tried and he was able to get out of it as soon as he wanted.
Just imagine having it done the way they really do it!
To Bill the dumbass,
??????
Hey, dumbass, ask England what they thought the colonists were when we started fighting them. While I know you would use the word freedom fighter, I think the King had a different take on the colonists illegal behavior as it stood in relation to the law at the time.
Or are you making the argument that when an individual feels that they are being repressed to a degree that they feel unfree, they have the right to fight off the individual or force that is subjecting them to that state? Think carefully before you answer (see Iraq resistance forces)
God you're such a wanker.
This is what happens when people know more about how many pubes Britney is showing that haven't been shaved off, but no clue about history, let alone that of their own country.
Again, you are such a wanker
There is a certain kid of person who is perfectly willing to oversee the deaths of other people's children for the sake of their own. In today's world, those people call themselves Republicans. It is a shame, really, as the Republican party USED to be filled with highly moral, ethical people who valued intellectual debate and reasoned thinking. Look at what has happened to conservatism in this country. Bill Buckley is spinning in his grave.
This whole Torture issue has also finally put an end to the calumny about moral relativism. The righties have been insisting for years that leftists are moral relativists. But this whole torture debate has shown the truth: That in fact it is the conservatives of today who have no absoulte moral values. They would GLADLY oversee the deaths of millions of other people's children to protect their own.
And Jesus wept.
"kid" = "kind"
sorry about that - no spellchecker!
The prisoners in gitmo did not have water poured directly into their mouths. What did he agree to something that is actually harder that what we did to the prisoners? Yes, he had his hands free, but the actual supply of oxygen, which is the only thing that matters in this situation, was lower for him than for real wterboarding.
[...] How long do you think you'd last? The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... __________________ The point in history at which we stand is full of promise and danger. The [...]
I agree that this Erich "Mancow" Muller is a wuss. However it is extremely incorrect to call him a conservative. Conservatives favor a limited government that is restricted by the constitution. Manwuss favors undeclared wars, foreign aid for Israel, deficit spending to fund undeclared wars for Israel, warrantless wiretapping, and a host of other expansionist government evils that true conservatives oppose. Manwuss is a neocon zionist chickenhawk posing as a conservative, much like Pills Limbaugh, Sean Hannitwerp, and these other so-called "conservative" talk show hosts. The conservative movement in America has been co-opted by these neocon traitors. True conservatism, however, is still the predominant mindset in America. We are the ones who can and will ultimately take America baclk
These right-wingers are dumb as dirt. Of course it's torture! In any event Mancow down and out in 6 seconds on to Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck and Lardass Limbaugh.
anthrax intimidation
monsters on parade
extortion blackmail bribery
aipac's israel-first dual-nationals
federal reserve is unaccountable?
the neocon 911 crime of the century
nader paul kucinich gravel
mckinney ventura too
perotcharts.com
RAGE
to David S,
ahhh, but that was before they decided to get in bed with the paragons of virtue and intelligence - the religious right. I Agree, I used to look at the R party as more libertarian and budgetary conscious. That party does not exist in any way at all anymore. Its ruled by bigots and small minded people who want to deny people rights. The things the R's say they stand for would logically lead them to actually be proponents of gay marriage and ending the inequality. And if they are against fed's making rules everyone has to follow, why the attempt to get federal overriding of states rights to choose who and how to recognize as married?
Or for a way to deal with global warming / climate change. The cap and trade model is the one that R's should be behind as well as being for the environment. They are intelligent ways to deal with problems where the waste is externalized and the cost is there, but unseen by that industry.
If the republicans are all about conservatism, why don't they believe in conserving the environment?
Really, I just can't believe how far into wankery the R's have gotten. Maybe its time to consign them to history, just like the whigs...
It must gall a lot of you that the hippies were right about the war, hell, about both wars. And that you were wrong. About the earth. About food, sex, endless things. You've adopted almost all their positions, and you hate them for it.
You are all idiots. Period.
Arguing on a friggin message board about democrats and conservatives. Both parties have pros, and both parties have cons, yet you are so blinded by your own political ideals that NONE OF YOU can see any merit in the others argument.
Right Wing Fascists vs. Left Wing Commies
I wish you'd just duel to the death and get your moronic arguments over with. Stop adding fuel to a fire that BOTH parties committed and get on with it. Lets fix this mess we're in and get on with life.
IDIOTS
someone who know what he is talking about explain to me why this setup involved pouring water directly into his mouth. that completely cuts off the flow of water, as opposed to what we did (at least according to the CIA documents) to the detainees? They had a cloth over their mouths and noses, but as you could imagine, air can get through like that. I don't have a horse in this race, but I don't think he is necessarily a wuss. I just think that he agrees to something that is harder than waterboarding.
to Joe
Really? while you may not want to admit that the republican party is what it currently is - it doesn't change the fact that when they were in power they ruled in a way that is absolutely unconservative. While the R party may have been about conservatism at some time in the past, its time to give up that ghost. If there are conservatives left in the R party its likely down to 10%. So conservatives were so upset that Bush wasn't conservative they elected him again? Maybe its you that no longer belong in the republican party because they are not conservative. Does Republicanism equal Religous zealotry? Yes. Bigoted? Yes. Conservative? Heh heh heh. Definitely no.
Okay, Hannity. Your turn.
[...] Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, lasts 6 seconds [...]
[...] Sun-Times, Erich "Mancow" Muller;, Paging, Sean Hannity Via Progress Illinois and The Raw Story, conservative radio hosts Erich “Mancow” Muller gets waterboarded — and after [...]
Props for stepping-up where that coward Sean Hannity failed to.
Hey, I give Mancow props for having balls enough to experience what Sean Hannity is too much of a pussy to find out for himself...
bd wrote: "Regardless of whether its torture or not, I say go ahead and do it. It didn't kill them provides valuable information. Placating these people and offering them roses and McDonalds isn't going to get them to talk."
Such ignorance.
1. There have been fatalities resulting from the torture ordered by Bush and Cheney.
2. There is NO evidence that any of the torture provided valuable information.
3. There is a LOT of information that torture is counterproductive - people being tortured will say anything to get the torture will stop.
4. One of the biggest lessons of WW2 was that war prisoners with valuable information could reliably be induced to reveal that information. How? By being really nice to them.
[...] radio host try waterboarding. The full article here: The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... hicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove [...]
"The average person can take this for 14 seconds,"
"It didn't turn out that way. "Mancow," in fact, lasted just six or seven seconds..."
Ah, Mancow went and threw his little cow toy away in just 7 seconds, half the time an average person can take it.
Another example of just what pusillanimous, hypocritical, armchair-quarterbacking cowards republicons are. They can talk and talk, but when it comes to girding up and taking some real pain, they're weak and cry like little babies.
Apparently this procedure is not similar in any way to just having your head stuck in water.
Unlike this Mancow person, I was willing to take Jesse Ventura's word for it.
If you want to get info out of people, use your brains not torture!
to Shack:
The idiot is one who believes that simply because there are two answers - one coming from each camp, that there must be a middle ground. No. Most times there is a correct answer and there is an incorrect answer. Not a middle ground, unless you want to make the good halfway bad.
If you have a question for 2+2 and one person says 4 and another says 6, the answer is not to call it 5, but say one is a dumbass and the answer is 4.
This is a good video because:
It obviously isn't torture. Mancow just proved he wouldn't make a good soldier or a terrorist.
Review some of the real 'torture' that people like McCain underwent by Geneva signatory Vietnam where people died or were crippled (like he is).
He waived off the EMT, he says he's fine, he suffered 7 seconds of discomfort. And if he were a terrorist who was suspected of knowing information related future attacks on soldiers or civilians, we would have just saved a lot of lives.
Ok - now all of you who didn't flinch when, in his first week in office, Obama dropped several bombs in Pakistan killing a bunch of civilians but are burning your American flags because W did this to three people - who among you still wouldn't condone this to prevent deaths of your fellow citizens?
Note: The Japanese version of 'waterboarding' was something else entirely and was actually lethal. This isn't. And the Japanese who were prosecuted for it as a war crime were prosecuted not for waterboarding, per se, but for waterboarding a US civilian (a big no-no per Geneva).
i'll say it again. this was not waterboarding. waterboarding involves a cloth over the face, so air can get in. holding a man's nose and pouring water into his mouth is not waterboarding. it is drowning. this only proved that drowning sucks. it proved nothing about WB
While I agree with everyone that bush and cheney and rumsfeld and all those war criminals are just that, it is not just the conservatives who are to blame. By refusing to press for prosecution, obama is just as guilty as those traitors. it's called being an accessory after the fact if nothing else. This no looking back crap is just that: crap. If i were to rob a bank, the cops sure as hell would look back on what I did and press charges. what they did was immoral, illegal, inhuman, and unforgivable. both parties are to share equal blame, as if there were any difference between the two parties to start with. I say, waterboard any elected official that says it is anything but torture or even doesn't insist on prosecution. and cheney regardless.
[...] Raw Story, another media figure has had to learn the hard way that water torture — excuse me, [...]
to jimh.
At no point did I say there was a middle ground. I said "both parties are to blame."
Simply put, you could argue that Bush is to blame for the war in Iraq, torture, Katrina, etc. You could also argue that Clinton didn't do a proper job (he didn't) after Desert Storm, inviting 911 to happen, and everything that followed in its wake.
You sound like a semi-intelligent person. You should attempt to digest what I said instead of trying to infer something else from it.
Any person wishing to take these mongrels to the Hague, can begin by contacting me and I'll show you how to successfully prosecute them.
DON'T for one minute think that it will be easy.......if you do decide to do this, you WILL need to watch your back carefully.
I have a suit just launched and a lawsuit-in-waiting for crimes such as this, and more arseholes are needed to fill in the gaps.
lets see how long some liberal fag lasts!
haha, pacifist pussies! lolz
To Shack,
Katrina? Really.
And while I got you, if I do, why did they hold Mancow's nose and pour water into his mouth directly, sans cloth? The oxygen flow is much lower that way. Not that it's relevant to this debate, but what Mancow subjected himself to was not WB.
So much hate. Truly you people on the left are like a totally different bread of humans. You talk about water boarding as being wrong yet you support doing it to people who disagree with you politically. You lump all Republicans together, You spew hate any time you can.
Torture has many definitions. I do not want to be tortured. I do not want to be water boarded either. I don't not want to have a liberal as a president. Either all are torture or you have to understand that just because something is horrible and you don't want it done doesn't make it torture. No, water boarding isn't fun. If it was it wouldn't be used. Neither is pulling all your finger nails out. Do I see ANY of you or anyone else volunteering for that?
Can we stop with all the hate towards our fellow Americans? (at least those of you from America). Does it make me want to understand your side any better when all I see is hate? Tell a black man that all he has to do is go to a KKK meeting and let those people see he is human and all racism will evaporate. /s So you need to understand when you people get together on a blog you sound just like I envision a KKK rally as sounding. I am just glad my side is the side that wants guns. We have to protect ourselves from people like you.
mike,
I say Katrina simply because everyone acted like Bush got out his hurricane machine and made it descend on the poor population of New Orleans. That bit was tongue-in-cheek for sure.
I can't speak for waterboarding as I'm not an expert on the subject. I don't know why they held his nose.
Funny how quickly you went from "you people on the left are like a totally different bread of humans" to "You lump all Republicans together."
The 'ticking timebomb' justification for torture is, as WJM pointed out, ludicrous. Life is not like "24." What I wonder is why conservatives, who typically bemoan the inefficiency of government bureaucracies, actually believe that the U.S. military could identify a terrorist suspect, apprehend him, torture information regarding an imminent attack out of him, pass that information up the chain of command, and actually get it acted on before the ostensibly 'ticking bomb' blew up? Somehow this does not strike me as a likely scenario. More likely any information coerced out of a suspected terrorist about an imminent explosion would have to be transcribed onto form 1875645-B, subsection E, which would then be submitted for review in the monthly briefing report--or more likely misfiled in a dusty cabinet and lost. Kind of like the report Condy got saying 'Bin Laden about to attack US with passenger jets."
re: ""It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...
and I don't want to say this:
absolutely torture.""
OK, When Do the Prosecutions of all that took part in Torture Begin?
Torture is a Federal Crime... look it up!
A Felony, a Capital Crime.
SIGN THE PETITION calling for the Indictment of Bush and Cheney for Torture
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
over 250,000 have signed
Join us and call yourself a Patriot
.
Hurricane machine, I like that.
Yes, the federal response was less than stellar, but I agree that when people say baldly that, "Katrina was Bush's fault," they are embarrassing themselves.
I'm no expert either, but I'd like others' thoughts on this. WB for sure is not pleasant, but it can't be as bad as having zero oxygen flow to your nose and almost zero to you mouth, on account of having water poured directly into it. Intuitively, it seems that the cloth technique is the 'true' waterboarding, in that it is unpleasant enough to cause panic, but the oxygen flow is high enough that we can do it to KSM 183 times in one month without killing him!
Dear Representatives, when are the criminals going to be prosecuted?
This event that Mancow sullied himself for was tantamount to someone volunteering to be raped to make sure it was not enjoyable.
I give Mancow credit for at least enduring the short amount of torture he did, and that he admitted the fact that waterboarding is torture (he was obviously shaken by the event). Mancow at least has some balls, whereas Sean Insannity has nothing dangling.
I would be happy to see Dickless Cheney waterboarded by Jesse Ventura. More than once? At least until he admits that waterboarding is torture, and that torture is illegal and un-American.
Tever,
With all due respect, mancow submitted himself to something far more difficult that waterboarding. He submitted himself to drowning in my opinion. It may seem like a small difference, but I think that completely cutting off oxygen to the nose and then pouring water directly into the mouth, without a cloth over it, is much worse than what I've seen other journalists go through.
I am on the fence, as a theoritician as to whether true WB is torture, and whether or not we should use it (after all, no one was on Clinton for rendition), but I am pretty sure than no one would be able to last long with ZERO oxygen, which is what mancow got.
[...] More waterboarding fun: http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/ [...]
ROFLMAO. Send this video to the next idiot that tells you that waterboarding isn't torture. What happened to my country??
Required viewing for anyone who thinks this video doesn't prove that waterboarding is torture:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808
half of you idiots actually think this is about repub vs dem? It's called divide and conquer while they take away your nation.
WAKE THE F*^K UP
http://patriosquestion911.com
start by asking how the 911 LIE was even possible, the story is 100% BS
then follow the money trail to the European monarchs and the elite mongrels in groups like the Masons and find out why your politicians have been selling your future children as slaves for their world gulag.
AS I SAID, WAKE THE F UP, neither one of these parties care about you AT ALL and both have LIED more than enough to prove that.
And MOST IMPORTANT, WHY do you think you are so ignorant? COuld it be because you trust media owned by the SAME PEOPLE, while they spout endless worthless information and turn you towards one another or STUFF THAT DOESN'T MATTER.
WAKE THE F UP
And we don't want to make terrorists submit to interrogation, because???
VoR
I am trying to be objective about this, but you not, it seem. Relax a little and reflect on your assertion that what he did was easier than 'real' waterboarding. It matters not where his hands are, or how his head is tilted (it's actually safer if his head is tilted back, so the water does not get in his lungs as easily). The most important variable is OXYGEN SUPPLY, and it seems to me that his was lower than that of the detainees (at least from reading the CIA documents and thinking a little about the flow of air and water). The cloth over the face makes an interface whereby water is thinned with air (like a fuel injector misting apparatus), whereas pouring water directly into the guy's mouth while completely blocking off his nose allows virtually no oxygen. You concentrated on some secondary variables -- the restraining of his arms and head, the tilt of his body, the frequency, but you missed out on the most important variable...his complete lack of oxygen when compared to cloth waterboarding, the type used at Gitmo. Put me in a room with 3 supermodels, soft music, candlelight, and a unicorn...sounds great, but I can't breathe AT ALL, then I'm going to tap out. Similarly, maybe the extraneous factors were easier for mancow, but the oxygen supply was much lower for him than for the detainees, in my opinion.
And easy on the rhetoric. We don't always have to be yelling at eachother.
mike, were you at gitmo? How do you know exactly what water torture techniques were used there? Are you just guessing?
I'm not saying waterboarding ISN'T torture, but being the sick, twisted freak I am, I'd like to see just how long I personally could last.
Hey mike, you seem to be in the know. Can you tell me what they shoved of Khalid El Masri's ass? Also, can with respect to the detainees, can you cite what else was going on, the stripping, the touching, the sleep deprivation, their diet. Honestly though, I want to know what they shoved up El Masri's ass. Any ideas?
question,
yes, just guessing, but trying to make it as educated as possible, and have tried to make it clear that is my opinion that what madcow submitted himself to was harder, due to the apparently smaller O2 supply he had. But I'm pretty confident in that opinion.
As for my guess, I am basing it on other videos I have seen of waterboarding, like this one, done by the US Armed Forces on Hitchens, so more reliable of a source than some dude pouring water into mancow's mouth with his nose held.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58
And here is the CIA document describing the process, and there is no mention of pouring water directly into someone's mouth with nose closed.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/missing_memos/28OLCmemofinalredact30May05.pdf
El Masri was fin before he met the CIA, but since then, he's had quite a bit of trouble:
[[On May 17, 2007, El-Masri was arrested on suspicion of arson. According to Die Welt Online (in German) the problem arose over a dispute over an iPod that El-Masri had bought at a METRO warehouse club store back in April in the Bavarian city of Neu-Ulm.[41] He claimed the iPod malfunctioned just hours after purchase. When he tried to return it, the store refused, and the situation escalated into a shouting match. El-Masri spat in the face of a female employee, and was barred from the store. On May 17, 2007, El-Masri kicked in a door of the Metro store and used gasoline to start a fire. The fire caused over €500,000 in damages. Nobody was hurt. El-Masri was arrested near the scene of the crime. After arrest, a judge ordered him held in a psychiatric hospital for unknown reasons. On May 18, El-Masri's attorney, Manfred Gnjidic, conceded his client did burn down the store, but blamed it on his client's torture experiences and claimed that the German government did not provide enough therapy to him after his return from Afghanistan.[42]
German prosecutors in the arson case also revealed that El-Masri faced charges for allegedly attacking a truck driving instructor. They said El-Masri lost his temper after the instructor criticised him for failing to attend his lessons.[43]]]
What'd they put in his ass Mike?
"...easy on the rhetoric. We don't always have to be yelling at eachother."
Wow. Just...wow.
After all the lies, torture, pointless wanton destruction and theft, environmental devastation, demagoguery aimed at anyone not a member of AEI/CATO/PNAC/Heritage Foundation/Dittoheads, etc. After all the "culture wars" aimed at anyone not a member of the "right church" and on, and on, and on, NOW that all the right-wing insanity is finally coming to light, now is the time to be civil to YOU.
Oh the humanity!
crappa,
i don't know, but it seems wide-eyed was the person responsible for monitoring the skin condition under the diapers during the sleep-deprivation sessions.
just jokes, wide-eyed
Please explain to me some more how you think I am even a right-winger, and what makes you think that any of that so-called demagogery has anything to do with this blog. I was just asking him to chill out a little, and if what you say is true, then why it is right for anyone to continue the divisiveness?
..Although it is hard for me to argue with one of your points: "And on and on and on." I can't beat that!
All of these people who keep calling for more of this torture on this board are the least deserving of living in a free country. In fact, it is cowards like them that have helped to make this a pussy state that I am ashamed to have served ten years of my life in the service defending. Defending pussies who are so afraid some bogeyman might do somethin. so afraid of what "might" happen that they are willing to sell everything we fought and bled and died to protect and preserve. these cowards who still clamor for torture have blasphemed every patriot who has ever stood up for freedom, They are the mind-set that has made this shining light of freedom turn into a piece of shit police state. fuck those cowards. free people stand up to little pussy tyrant cowards like you and when we do, you just piss your little pussy pants in fear. all of you cowards clamoring for torture are a disgrace to the flag, to the country, and to humanity. not a single one of you has the balls to be free. got it? is that clear enough for your pussy brain-dead cowardly asses?
Conservatives vouching for waterboarding by saying it isn't torture are the anus of the Republican party...
And most of the comments here are obviously the bottom of the Liberal barrel.
Why must everyone in this god damned country who has a political stance be a total intolerant fucktard?
this one is just because i wanted to recieve any followups in my email. to see what the pussies who are too afraid to be free had to say. though in truth, i'd rather just shoot their pussy asses for being the cowards their words prove them to be. what disgusting pieces of shit cowards like that prove themselves to be.
Thank you, Mr. Muller. You are an to American hero. Your courage and valuable insight help us keep our moral compass straight as we grapple with the on-going and deeply complicated torture debate. Your forthcoming testimony is a just one example of the vitally information that we have come to rely on from our trusted mainstream corporate media. You give us the American people the facts we need that will enable us not only to win the "War on Terror", but to do so in a manner that is in line with our traditional American values. We salute you, sir.
-.- ...
don't be so hard on yourself. open those eyes back up again
o.o ... ???
mike:
without a towel is actually easier. he can get some gasps of air.
with a towel means that if he breathes in, he breathes in a damp towel, which will only make his inhalations rougher and useless.
also, they wanted to hear him squeal like a little girl. Did you not watch the video?
that's one answer. i have my doubts, but I wanted to hear other's opinions on the relative difficulty of with/without the towel. i guess it depends on the flow rate of the water poured directly into his mouth. if it is so fast that no air can get in, it's worse, which it seemed at first. I say this, because the towel distributes the water and mixes it with air. The guy took the flow off of his mouth for a little, which makes it easier, but mancow submitted before he realized what was going on. I'm sure if you knew the timing of the on/off routine, you could beat it, but both ways suck, obviously. I just think that, depending on the flow rate, it is worse without a towel. Not that I want to find out, either way.
On another point, we all agree this is very hard to go through, but is it torture if someone voluntarily submits himself to it? Would mancow agree to get his fingernails ripped off?
Sean Hannity is a blow hard little queef-boy.
The biggest coward ever to stick his face out in public, and not deserving of ever getting laid again in his life. If he ever has. Probably impotent from and scared of girls.
Hey, Shean you little bb-balled weezle! I fart in your general direction!!!!!
To "Liberals Hate:" yes, we liberals hate, we hate liars, we hate torturers, we hate those who want to shred the constitution, and that's you, conservatives. Stop torturing people, stop screwing over the poor and the middle class, stop shoving your demented version of religion and your so-called right wing ethics down our throats and maybe we will stop hating you!
Not a Mancow fan but I applaud him for doing this and for being candid with his response. It takes serious courage to say what he did about Waterboarding.
mike: Well, if you take a wet face-towel and put it over your face, you'll be able to breathe through it -- it's just a little wetter and there's still air. But, with a continuous flow of water, the water seeps through and places itself in-between the towel and the mouth. Also, the air that might be in the towel are probably akin to air in your normal tap water, yet you still can't breathe through it unless you had gills.
The position with the head below the feet doesn't help, either. Personally I wouldn't call this "simulated" drowning, because it still causes you to breathe in water -- not to be confused with swallowing. Water accumulates in the lungs over time, and any person can drown with just that. A lot of drownings actually happen some 48 hours after the drowning victim is outside of water, oftentimes when they're sleeping at home.
I fail to see the relevance of your second question, though... He had agree to submit to waterboarding, but first through that it wasn't torture: He came out with a different opinion. Could you please elaborate on your concept?
mike:
the definition of waterboarding seems to be pretty broad - and in some forms cutting off airflow is part of the deal.
Just google it, check out the wikipedia article on it: Sounds like in its most basic form, being waterboarded means being strapped back-to-the-board, feet elevated, and having water poured over the face, Sometimes with cloth covering, sometimes with cellophane (with or without airholes), sometimes with nothing. Sometimes eyes covered, sometimes eyes & nose, sometimes the whole face.
i'm no expert here., but i just looked it up.
Geez, most of the dialogue on this website is nothing but ideological and emotional drivel, hahaha. Could we please have some civility and discuss things instead of constant name-calling? Either sides, seriously.
pierre,
my question is this:
we agree that beating is torture. breaking bones is, too. we all agree stretching is torture. cutting open the stomach is torture. ripping off fingernails is torture. we don't do those things to our marines for training for example, and no radio hosts agree to have those things done to them. there is no such thing as unambiguous in most cases in my opinion, but most reasonable people agree that those things are torture.
however, a lot of people have volunteered to get waterboarded (the way we do it, not the japaneese way). we waterboard our military. everyone who has been through it says it is painful. so is a kidney stone. so is childbirth. but if we waterboarded KSM 183 times in a month, then he was not breathing in enough water to drown, even though he went through hours a day. of course, it has to be done properly. so I am agruing, via a question, that if it is torture, it is a very low form of torture, and the simple reason I gave for it was that people volunteer for it, while they would never agree to be stretched.
kiboshki
i was going off the CIA's description of it.
Wiki will rightfully give you all forms of WB, including maybe the japaneese way, which can be lethal.
But the CIA claims that they used a cloth and the subjects were under constant supervision for signs of extreme distress.
DNC corrupt-to-the-core RNC
mike: If I understand correctly, you're saying that waterboarding is a mild form of torture, a bit like comparing a nose-bleed to a cut femur. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't see it in that perspective. The way I see it, is that you are comparing things that have more history in our culture than things which do not. Most everyone knows how unpleasant it is to jam your nail in a door, or scratch too hard against a surface, so they would understandably object to having their nails removed. Stretching was performed in the middle ages by those who were higher-up on criminals and such -- most of us have probably seen images of prisoners in iron maidens, or people having their backs stretched beyond belief over a bed of nails. We know those things are very painful. Anyone who values their bodies proper functioning would refuse to have their bellies ripped open, or receive any beatings. Why would they go through it just to prove a point?
Waterboarding, however, is a relatively new concept to us. We didn't even call it that until recently, it was kept out of the public eye. It doesn't physically damage the body, it doesn't tear you open or leave you wounded, so why would anyone think it's torture? This is the reason, I believe, that people will volunteer to under-go it; because there is "no" historical precedent for it. I mean, if you saw someone put their hand on the stove and they burnt themselves, would you put your hand on the stove after? What if you were asked to put your hand on the stove before you saw someone get burnt..?
Sorry if my post is a bit long, and please correct me if I misunderstood your question. Thanks.
A talkshow host experienced the same treatment an admitted terrorist received while being detained and then went on the air to describe experience. Too bad Daniel Pearl couldn't write about the treatment he received from said terrorist
discussions of whether this is mild torture is as ignorant as can be. that is like saying we are just mildly free or mildly totaltarian. or just mildly stupid. no. by not being outraged that we even HAVE to debate whether or not we are decent human beings who stand for freedom, we have demonstated we are undeserving of our freedoms. those who debate whether torture lite is okay are as much an enemy of the state as those on the field who fire at our troops. Torture, or even just mal-treatment of the most banal nature has been well-documented for over 2000 years as a bad idea, at the very least. maybe some of you psuedo-intellectuals who like to debate on whether or not you have the balls to be free should read sun-tzu's art of war. i recommend samual griffith's translation. 2500 years ago he recommended treating prisoners well so they'd be allies and not future enemies for life. however, the cowards run the country today, and for all their religious screaming of morality, these very same moral people are too afraid to trust that god is truly on their side, and so they must resort to torture. these are the most vile and despicable people ever. bush, cheney, rumsfeld, and even obama should be on trial for war crimes. obama for not actively seeking investigations, and also for blocking it's inevitable happening. at least if we were a free country, our leaders would be required to hold themselves to a higher standard. a standard america used to be thought of holding throughout the world. instead, we have become nothing but petty thugs who are afraid of our own shadows. fuck you. a coward who is so afraid they require the torture of others for their own security blanket is not worthy of freedom and will never know the peace that comes from a free persons heart as they face their trials and adversity without the pure fucking cowardly terror these scum feel. anyone condoning torture is a traitor. anyone practising it, should be shot. that is what we did in ww2, and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. all of you who endorse this barbaric practise out of your cowardly little spineless fears should be ashamed of yourselves, but we know that scum like you have no shame. nor do you have the courage to ever stand on the front lines and actually lay it on the line for freedom. your actions show that you do not respect those that did so either. fuck you evey single one. and that most especially includes our supposed leaders.
pierre
that is the logical flaw in my argument. i was thinking about mentioning it, but i didn't want to take the time of explaining why i didn't think it pokes holes in my argument. but now you have made me address it, sir.
you are correct. i am arguing that there is a sliding scale of torture and that WB is a mild form of torture, if torture at all. most agree that it doesn't physically damage the body, and we clearly did it for extended periods of time to 3 people, under medical supervision, without adverse physical effects. knowing what i know, i'd rather undergo WB than any other form of torture that i know of, though i know in the back of my mind that i wouldn't be submitting myself to long-term damage, and hence the psychological effects would not be as bad as on someone who may or may not have read on the subject before finding themselves a detainee.
this is a hard argument. by the CIA's own account half of the info that we obtained on Al-quaida was a direct reult of WB, and the capture of the mastermind of the 'second wave' was also thanks to WB. That second claim is a little shaky, and I don't want to get into that, unless you want to. it is clearly effective. if it is not torture, then it is the best of both worlds, but the psychological aspect has been let out of the bag, for if we ever us it again (haven't since 2003), they will know we're not going to drown them
This is FLUFF! they RAPED children in front of their parents and worse! Try that MAN COW !
This is all cover for the CORRUPT!
i think jim lunsford needs to read some more recent history, pierre. what do you think?
We all like Sun-Tzu, and thanks for the recommendation of the translation that you happened to read (I find it hard to believe you've read more than 1 translation). What's next, you gonna recommend Howard Zinn's 'A people's history of the US'? And we are ALL pseudo-intellectuals. I should be working right now, but I'm too lazy to be a real intellectual. At least some of us can admit our own shortcomings. You, my friend, however, seem to think that your words are gifts from God to be bestowed upon the mere Philistines of this friday-afternoon blog.
I have a reading suggestion for ya: maybe on the Clinton administration's outsourcing of torture to Egypt in a program called rendition? At least 'the most despicable people ever' had the courage to do their own dirty work, which was not nearly as dirty as Clinton's Egyptian program.
I'm getting a headache just looking at these comments. Let me quote something from Abe Lincoln:
"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
I hate both conservatives and liberals with their bias vs. bias arguments. How to fix this situation, I don't know. But I'm staying out of this hell hole.
[...] http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/ [...]
[...] a surprise. “I wanted to prove it wasn’t torture,” Mancow said. “They cut off our [...]
thanks, Nate, for climbing in here to tell us you're staying out of this hell hole. we call that a hit-n-run in the business. you like to get in the last word and then say, 'let's just drop it?'
debate is a good thing, Nate.
mike
I don't believe that there is an intensity scale to determine how "strong" torture is. Torture is to cause pain, either mentally of physically, either permanently or not. You seem to agree that psychologically it is damaging, so why wouldn't it be torture?
Even under medical supervision, it should still be considered torture. If you were to put someone on a rack and stretch them, with doctors around, would it not be torture? If you were to deprive someone of sleep for a week, with doctors monitoring the subject, would it not be torture anymore?
The idea that knowing would protect anyone from this kind of treatment is erroneous. Mr Muller knew that he wouldn't be drowned, that there was a paramedic by his side, and the mechanisms of the technique. Why did he quit after a (seemingly) short amount of time? The principles of waterboarding do not rely on cognition, but rather reflexes. The body reacts by itself when water goes into the nasal cavities and your brain goes into sympathetic mode. You wouldn't think about it, you just react, violently. It's a basic impulse for survival, and whether you know you'll live or not, your body thinks it won't. To have this kind of near-death simulated multiple times would wreak havoc psychologically, and to physically have your blood rate constantly raised, adrenaline pumping, and not relaxed, could very well have a physical impact. Having swam for some eight years, I can attest that water can be very dangerous, and terrifying even if you know nothing will happen.
I don't know enough about how effective waterboarding is, but the articles I have read conflict with what you're telling me. As such, I won't try to disprove your argument, simply because I'm ignorant. If you could link me to more info, however, I'd be thankful.
To mike. i tried to read clavell's translation but he had it wrong. a few others as well, part of my job. a professionall. airborne. we haven't had a real president since andrew jackson in my opinion. my disgust and outright hatred for torture applies to all of the fucktards that propose it, promote it, or just confuse it as an intellectual debate. that would include yo uon the last one. you, think that by including just one more name you are now a genius/ wow. but where was your fucking moal outrage? having put my ass on the front lines as a paratrooper, i am ashamed and filled with fury at you pussies who don't understand a basic fact. torture is torture and is for subhuman pieces of shit. it is not for free countries. it is not for peoploe who are brave enough to be free. not only does it not work, as you will tell them any goddamn thing they want to hear. it makes enemies. but it is, above all else, for subhuman pieces of shit. that would include all of our leaders who have practised rendition, who have encouraged and approved torture, and who do not actively seek to invetigate and prosecute any who do. it is for animal fuckheads. it is not for those who dare to be free. any questions you ignorant little pseudo-intellectual fucktard?
Dave Begotka
This is FLUFF! they RAPED children in front of their parents and worse! Try that MAN COW !
This is all cover for the CORRUPT!
[eyes ears brain heart in gear]
At least this "conservative" has the spine to admit he was wrong.
by the way mike the fuckhead, my mla is in history. fuck you. where did you get your ged? the internet? debate your superiority in torture techniques with your goth friends in the basement. you would tell them your mother sold crack in five seconds. she probably does, but still.....
google 'CIA bradbury' and look it over. page 10 is the part I am referring to. Unlike what some on the right claim, that 'WB lead to the thwarting of the second wave,' it claims that the man who was charged with carrying it out was captured as a result of WB.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15240011/usolcciabradburytorture05302005
i do think there is a sliding scale, but this is one of those 'i say A, you say B' arguments that will not be won today. As G.K. Chesterton said, at least we know the other stands -- thus the argument is good and manly. He was a bit of a misogynist, though 'What's wrong with the world' is a helluva read.
quote from you, Jim the Hero
"that would include yo uon the last one. you, think that by including just one more name you are now a genius/ wow."
becase I totally claimed to be a genius, dude. look, I don't care about your degree. the fact that you are losing your cool and calling me names, even though I just have a GED says something about your confidence.
And just because you were a paratrooper doesn't mean that what you are saying is a 'basic fact.' You're like one of those people who just starts making his point louder when you are challenged. Just because you're an impressive guy, and you say something is so, doesn't mean it is so. It sounds like you have a little bit of a god complex.
And lay off my goth friends. At least we're not emo. Wearing jeans that tight is torture, if you ask me.
[...] via The Raw Story » Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its.... [...]
I want to hear the proof that the torture produced results that saved innocent lives. If it did, then that makes the methods okay (evil, but okay). If Cheney is right, then what? Trouble is, the public won't get the facts. Now Obama has jumped on the Gates bandwagon-that there are terrorists everywhere plotting to kill Americans. It's pretty hard to take. I voted for Obama, and now he sounds exactly like his republican predecessors. It's all a bunch of crap. It sounds like another 4 + 4 years of American kids giving their lives for elected crooks.
so you are saying it isn't a basic fact that torture isn't a tool of police states? perhaps you would like to clarigy what your fucktard ass is calling a fact. maybe you think it is a fact that torture works? ask anyone who has ever had it done to them. even this torture lite. ask them if it works. maybe you are tougher than jesse ventura, or this guy here. maybe you have a fact you would like to share. all i've heard from you is that so far, you think because i hate cowards who torture, that i think i am speaking for god. no, i know that cowards torture, all the arguments for torture speak from the fountain of fear from which these fucking scumbag pieces of shit swim in. what is this glorious fucking fact that you have that goes against this? what a fucking fucktard.
I agree that it's not something either side can convince the other of, especially not in a short lapse of time. Personally, I'm still too young and ignorant to conclude either way, but I believe that torture is wrong regardless of the circumstances.
What can we agree on, though? That waterboarding is indeed torture? That it is mentally damaging?
OK, Jim. I think I deciphered your point through the fucking-fucktard-fest that was your last post.
I said you have a god complex because you are saying that your assertions are 'basic facts.' I'm just quoting you. It appears what you are saying is opinion. Opinion based in experience, but opinion nonetheless, and you calling them 'facts' devalues your argument.
To answer your question, I don't have any concrete 'facts' about torture, just arguments with which I am trying to convince you. But I am saying this "basic fact." Just because you are allegedly someone who knows a lot and is a war hero (sorry if I am using that term too lightly -- correct me if I am wrong), doesn't mean that your points are immutable. I know a lot too, I think, but I am not going to say that my points are 'facts' and that everyone who disagrees with me is a 'fucktard.' Make sense?
Whoa, why the rush to judgement, Mancow? Maybe it gets better the next 182 times.
I think we can agree that it's a form of torture, and extremely unpleasant, which can potentially be psychologically damaging.
Of course, seeing a dog eat a snake can be psychologically damaging, so we are in a not-every-rectangle-is-a-square form of agreement/argument, where you will say, 'if it is physc damaging, it is torture', and I will say 'if it is torture, it is psych damaging, but if it is psych damaging, it is not necessarily torture.' But I have already conceded that I think it is mild torture, so I'm not sure the psych aspect is relevant. I gotta go. Peace.
Although that is an ironic salutation for this situation...
You made some points that made me think. I'm going to read more on reflex and the sympathetic mode.
[...] [...]
Thank you "thanks," for your reply. I just find extreme hate between fellow Americans that is found in few other countries. Siding with conservatives or siding with liberals is a ridiculous thing to do since both parties are extreme in their own ways, or wrong in their own ways. I liked the period after 9/11 when we were actually unified as a country, but we as people grow more separated every year.
Mike:
You have got to be kidding, right?
What I saw on the video is pretty much exactly as described by the CIA and elsewhere. And the guy conducting, I'm confident, knew what he was doing. Cutting off the air-supply is the whole point of waterboarding. If the person being waterboaded could breathe just fine, it would be as "Mancow" described it prior to experiencing it, and that would certainly not get you any information at all.
In other words: If the CIA practiced it as you think they practiced it it wouldn't serve any purpose at all. We all could last hours, days, maybe years, if we could breathe just fine and all that's happening is we're getting splashed on the face with water, right? I mean, you know that, right?
Look, if you think we were easier on suspects, great, but no one who has been following this story these past years is really taking you very seriously.
Kev
San Francisco, CA
Nate. Read about the sunni/shiite conflict. Or Lega Nord in Italy. Or the Quebeq/Rest-of-Canada conflict. Or any country in Africa.
Our system is not perfect, but there is less hatred here between parties than in most countries.
Maybe Denmark is an exception, but then again those soccer games get pretty intense!
I am not a hero. I am just not a coward who uses torture. nor am i a barbaric pig who thinks it's a good thing. nor am i a morally bankrupt person who thinks it's just an idle intellectual exercise. nor am i a piece of shit who doesn't understand that this debate on what constitutes torture is merely a symptom of the downfall of our country. and our country is in a state of decline. that is a fact. economically we are heading into a depression you can't even imagine. one fueled by laws by the traitor bush and the dem congress when they encouraged our industry to leave the country. when they allowed usury to be the norm on credit cards. when they all wrote the piece of shit nazi legislations they call the patriot act and the goddamn military commissions report. one thing i have to say ihs a fact. not an opinion., the whole fucking world hates us. there is a reason for that. it is because we are nothing but the nazis in a different country. and it is not just reps/dems. they are the same. hell, that fucking piece of shit obama is doing the bush shit even harder and faster, but he polishes the turd enough so the dumb fucks we call citizens thinks he really is change. we torture. it is morally reprehensible. it doesn't work to get information. it only works to supress a population. that is the only effectve use it has ever had. for a country to supress it's own. and if you read the aforementioned piece of shit nazi legislations, you would know that we citizens are next on the loist for waterboarding. after all dipfuck obama didn't repeal them. didn't stop rendition. didn't do a damn thing to stop the bush trend. just sped it up. those are facts. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where that is all heading, but with this stupid bunch of fucking retards debating whether torture is effective or not, rather than be morally outraged over its use. or who are we torturing? oh yes, people of a country we invaded. so these terrorists are actually people who (at the very worst) are defending their land from foreign invaders. a cruel invader who does far more than waterboarding. and that cruel fucking heartless scumbag invading nation would be us.
Kev,
I don't care if anyone takes me seriously. But I am saying that there is a difference between restricted airflow and no airflow. It is my opinion that KSM got restricted airflow through the towel, and mancow got zero through the constant stream of water (for the first 6 seconds). The guy took the stream off, but it was too late for mancow, who already gave up. All I'm saying is that 14 seconds of what mancow had to go through is probably harder that 14 seconds of towel WB. Not that either is easy, but one has to be thoughtful about these things. Small differences in method can cause huge differences in results. Just ask Lance armstrong to win the TDF on a bike that weighs 2 more pounds than that of everyone else.
Sorry to hit-n-run, but I really gotta go this time.
to mike,
Thanks for your reply and not losing your temper like many of the posters on here. I will definitely check out those different conflicts.
yes mike. go ahead and run. don't forget to keep studying differences in torture techniques. that is such a lovely subject. oh, the intricacies in the ways we can make ourselves less human. maybe you can come back after you get through skinning the neighborhood cats. what a disgusting piece of shit. do morals and integrity even figure in any aspect of your life? it doesn't seem like it. in fact, just by taking your detached and psuedo-intellectual (read sub-human) approach, you dehumanize yourself. it is behavior reminiscent of sociopaths and other pieces of shit who also torture. maybe you will one day get to fullfill your life long dream of being a member of the gestapho. seig heil nazi bitch.
Mike
Of course, distress is understood mostly at a personal level. Some people are distressed when they see a fly die, others don't flinch at visions of execution. I will say that the definition in the fifth amendment as (paraphrase) "shocking to the general public" is a bit too vague for my tastes, at least in a legal sense.
In your response to Nate, you bring up the interesting concept that are nations and states. Québec is a nation, but it's part of the state of Canada. An anthropologist or sociologist or even political scientist could probably identify many nations within the USA. The unity of a state is important, though, as the idea of a nation is mostly based on emotions, and can shift from generation to generation.
I ramble.
lates
Cheney ran the wargames on 911. In other words he is complicit in 911 being carried out. Arrest him for this reason.
thanks Jim. I stuck around long enough to read that last post. I am detached sometimes. you are right about that.
I'm not always, though. I once stopped a man in KY from beating his wife. I say that not to toot my own horn, but because I like to think that I can remain detached about the things that require more analysis and jump into the fray when evil is clearly in our midst. We stopped WB in 2003, and only did it to 3 very bad people, so I may sound detached, but it is because we have the luxury of discussing the intricacies of the technique and its moral implication, as we should, while we are not under attack, so if we are attacked again, we will have explored the morality and practical crannies of the technique. tata
Jim Lunsford
Seriously, take a chill pill and look yourself in the mirror for a second. Do you really think you can make friends by throwing acid at them? And if you don't want to make friends, what's the point of even posting? To try and "prove them wrong" by resolving to pithy name-calling and rubbish comparisons? Maybe it's your turn to study, go read a history book and see what Nazis were really about. Learn what a sociopath is actually like, and make critical analyzes instead of spitting out whatever fancy words come to mind. Mike's behavior was far from that of a sociopath, a word that would better be used to describe you.
What makes you better than far-right Republicans? Nothing, you're as far off the scale of reality as any of those you criticize, if not more.
either that, or epic troll. 7/10 would troll again.
If Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and Rove can last 17 seconds...?
To John, I agree on so many levels on that one. And not just him either. But, on a site where they find the most interesting aspect of ours being a nation which tortures, is the technique involved, and little or no thought of what it means to the nation as a whole, it is probably wasted opinon here. After all, if torturing, which doesn't work, is barbaric and normally associated with primitive societies whom we are supposed to condemn, is not a subject of moral outrage here, then of what possible interest would these fucktards have in actual justice, true critical thought, or anything a socially responsible citizen of a free country would have? At one time, people might have concerned themselves with being associated with the sub-human slime that engage in torture, but apparantly now it has been reduced to a mere psuedo=intellectual discourse among the primates on this site. In other words, freedom isn't really an issue here. Nor is justice. Nothing very respectable would seem to be an issue here, only the vague faggy discources on the proper techniques to be used when these little faggots finally get to work in their highly valued careers as torturers. What a bunch of fucktards.
So, how many of you Liberals have served your country? My guess is less than five percent of the Libs talking shit about a conservative not serving have never served themselves...as I HAVE.
Next question, if waterboarding is torture and ILLEGAL why are you imbeciles cheering it on? Waterboarding terrorists is grounds for prison, waterboarding a conservative is grounds for celebration?
Sure seems to me these comments prove one thing: Liberals hate Conservatives a WHOLE lot more than the terrorists trying to kill your pathetic asses.
Mancow? He had the balls to do it...yet you call him a pussy? Lets see one you Liberals do it ON VIDEO to show how tough YOU ARE you bunch of snot nosed punks.
You idiots are THE biggest threat to the future of this country. You are simply TOO STUPID to be of any benefit to this great nation, who's founders would be considered right wing extremists today....yet their actions are the very reason you miscreants have the freedoms you do...or should I say HAD, before the Messiah is finished destroying America with his UNPRECEDENTED spending and debt accumulation...which has accomplished exactly SQUAT to date.
Hypocrisy is to Liberalism as water is to fish. You cannot live without it. It surrounds you and everything you say and do.
Mike:
Okay. Sorry. You're right. Restricted air-flow -- which most life-long smokers experience (myself included) is different than no air-flow.
So terrorists experienced with waterboarding what I experience everyday: "restricted air-flow." Okay. Sure. Why not?
Frankly, I'm surprised anyone ever said anything about anything. Why would they do this at all? I certainly don't feel compelled to "talk."
But you're right. I'm sure what "Mancow" experienced is very, very different than what terrorist suspects experienced (that's the most acurate thing said here, by the way).
Oh, and BTW: You say you're not an expert but think the guy doing the waterboarding on "Mancow" somehow doesn't know what he's doing. Okay. Sure. Why not?
You're right about one thing: Let's be very clear about these things. Simply put: It doesn't take a "Mr. Spock" to recognize that your agument is totally illogical from begining to end.
Kev
San Francisco, CA.
Way too much emphasis has been put on waterboarding. More talk should be made about slamming folks heads against the wall. Head slamming does not cause as much panic, but the effects are many times much more devastating: TBI, blindness, deafness, stroke, death, etc.
Only in the U.S. will torture be turned into entertainment programming. These radio and tv personalities need to stop daring each other. Waterboarding is torture. It's not a matter of opinion. Neither is whether or not torture can be justified. It's illegal. We don't need idiotic radio personalities to tell us that waterboarding is torture. Prosecute the torturers and all their apologists.
Mad Cow, It's only fair and balanced that you should try more experimenting by getting your head chopped off, and then have water poured down your neck...need to test both sides of this, surely.
To pierre the fucking idiot. Why wold I want to make friends with someone like you? You think the delicacies of torture techniques are so cool, but fail to see how their very use has damned our counry in the world's eyes. I am fucking outraged at an act that has left my years of service a waste of time. there was simply no point in defending a country who stoops to such piggish filthy acts as torture. And the only thing you have to contribute is your little faggoty discourse on how to best define the optimum way to do it? or perhaps the finer points of restricting the air flow? how about unrestricting the blood flow to the part of your brain that is concerned with what the entire thing is about? we are a nation that tortures. we are a scumbag police state that tortures. we are damned in the eyes of the world. our fear based reasons for doing so have made us enemies that now number in the billions. because we are cowards who torture, we now have more to be afraid of. and yet, it is only the best ways to torture that interest you. the finer points of dehumanizing each other. and you say i am a socio path. usually sociopaths are quite intelligent, obviously a retard like yourself gets through every now and then. sociopaths are marked by extreme rage, but they also disassociate themselves from their victim. much like you do in your little faggoty discources. by making the "subject" an intellectual exercise, you can competly ignore the inhumanity of the act itself. Me, i have what I consider righteous rage at the complete destruction of all that I stood for. all that i bled for. all that i took lives for. all that my friends died for. i think that is a whole lot of really good reasons to be enraged. and you think i want some piece of shit like you as a friend? fuck you. you are a part of the whole problem bitch. you disgust me. why would i want the friendship of a thing i consider sub-human? as we say in the army. foad - fuck off and die,
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anybody who claims waterboarding isn't torture should get video'd doing this for 5 minutes. In the words of Jesse Ventura, "You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders." Ventura is speaking as a former SEAL. No one in uniform wants enemies tortured because it makes an excellent excuse to torture our guys. And in spite of what is claimed, it yields at best unreliable information.
If you don't think so, have a few frat boys waterboard YOU and see how long you can hold out before you confess to the 9/11 murders.
Torture persists because it is easy, and appeals to small minds, not because it works well.
you all suck. mancow isnt even a conservative. if you need to label him he's probably a libertarian. the conservatives hate this guy and try to sic the FCC on him to shut him up.
Jim
Ironically, you're letting your emotions control you, lol.
I'm not an American, so you can point fingers all you want but I didn't partake in anything. In fact, by engaging in rational discourse, I'm doing something productive, instead of insulting and constantly using homophobia to let you know how upset I am! A subject doesn't become void of humanity if it's presented objectively.
I can understand you're upset, even though I can't relate, but really now, you're not helping our cause.
When will most of you on this forum come to the realization that you are playing right into the "divide and conquer" scenario with your partizan spats?
The Dems and Reps are one big happy family. They have monopolized our political arena and have you duped into thinking hter is a differnece. THERE IS NOT A DIFFERENCE that is significantly measurable!
They have effectively knocked out any Independents chances of participating in the election process by creating laws which discriminate Indys and the heads of the two headed snake seized control of the debates from the Ladies auxilary after Perot rattled their cage and they totally control them.
WAKE UP!!!
And I would do this to a terrorist personally if I thought it would save thousands of Americans from torture, or death. Even all you nasty liberals who think we should cozy up to terrorists and mass murderers. Well maybe not you, but other average Americans. You probably think the guy who cut off Daniel Pearls head should be tucked in with milk and cookies at night. YOU ARE THE PUSSIES. And have NO idea what American's have gone thru to protect your rights and freedoms.
Mike -
You're trying to be thoughtful about the situation, and I respect that. From what I understand about waterboarding, however, it isn't the restriction of airflow - you can do that just by putting plastic over their nose and mouth. It's the sensation of water in the nose and airways and the panic it causes, which is (as Mancow demonstrated) immediate. It's a hard-wired reaction. There is also a strong physiological reaction to cold water on the face called the "dive response," which affects the ability to breath. If it was just restricted air flow, he should have been able to hold out for as long as he can hold his breath, which I would assume is far longer than six seconds.
No, it isn't life-threatening, but that's not the point of torture - terror is the goal. John McCain said that of all the forms of torture he endured, solitary confinement was the worst. I think it is informative that someone who experienced extreme physical torture would pick one that involved only mental and emotional distress as the hardest to endure and recover from.
[...] time around, Erich “Mancow” Muller offered himself to be waterboarded again to try to prove it’s not all that bad. And so, yet again another swaggering asshole [...]
WELL,WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED! HALF THE WATER POURED TO HIS NECK & PINCHED NOSE PREVENTED THE REAL EFFECTS! LOOK,9-11; THE DEMOLITION OF THE TWIN TOWERS & BLDG.7 (TRIPOD II NYC PORT &9-11 WAR GAME HIJACKERS;ABLE DANGER,ABLE WARRIOR;SOCOM;CENTCOM,FLA.)W\SILVERSTEIN & FRANK LOWY; 99 YR.LEASE OF WTC(JULY 2001) BY EISENBURG;NY PORT AUTHORITY HAD ALREADY PROHIBITED THE DEMOLITION OF THOSE MONEY LOSING,ASBESTOS CONTAMINATED,UNFIT FOR COMPUTER PROGRAMING(RE-WIRE) W\COSTS OF $750 MILLION TO BRING 'EM UP TO CODE,THEY CANCELED AMERICAN SHIPPING\HOUSTON CASUALTY(MARVIN BUSH,DIR.SECURACOM SECURITY)ACQUIRING SWISS&MUNICH RE-INSURANCE CO.(&THE REST)WHICH HAD TO PAY OUT $4.4BILLION IN INSURANCE COVERAGE(IT WAS CHEAPER TO KNOCK'EM DOWN! IT WAS MORE PROFITABLE TO KNOCK'EM DOWN.THE DEMOLITION OF THE WTC TWIN TOWERS&BLDG.7 DISGUISED AS A TERRORIST ATTACK AS A PRETEXT TO USE THE MILITARY TO GO STEAL OIL FROM CASPIAN SEA REGION;OIL\GAS PIPELINES THRU TURKMENISTAN,AFGHANISTAN,PAKISTAN PORT(S)& A GAS PIPELINE TO INDIA. AND WMDS;THE CHEMICAL\BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS FROM FORT DETRICK,MD.THAT REAGAN\BUSH GAVE SADDAM DURING THE IRAN\IRAQ WAR;WMDS USED AS A PRETEXT TO INVADE IRAQ &STEAL IT'S OIL RESOURCES AND STEAL OIL FROM SOMALIA,SUDAN,AFRICAN COUNTRIES AND NEXT TO USE THE MILITARY TO STEAL IRAN'S OIL FIELDS,STEAL VENENZUELA'S OIL,STEAL MEXICO PEMEX OIL SO THEY CAN SCREW ALL THESE DUMBSHIT AMERICANS AT THE GAS PUMPS(WAR PROFITEERING CORN FARMERS DON'T MIND IT AT ALL!!!!)HUH?OH, I SEE....MY FELLOW AMERICANS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW THE TRUTH....WELL,I LEFT OUT TOO MANY DETAILS....DO I HAVE ANYMORE SPACE TO WRITE SOME MORE....OH,NOW YOU'RE GOING TO SEND YOUR FEDERAL MARSHALLS AGAIN TO MY HOME,KNOCK DOWN MY FRONT DOOR,RANSACK IT,& TRY TO TAKE AWAY MY FREEDOM AGAIN....LOOK,I'M NOT ZARQAWI;SOME IRAQI HOMEBOY WEARING TENNIS SHOES WHO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO CLEAR MY WEAPON !!!! I'LL EXPOSE ALL YOU BUNCH OF RACKETEERING,WAR PROFITEERING,FISCAL WAR CRIMINALS!!!! I'LL EXPOSE ALL YOU POLITICAL CRIMINALS AND YOUR U.S.CRIMINAL GOV'T!!!! LATER, I AM LOUIS IV.,MARINE
and though morality has no bearing in your conversations, note how mccain, who was yet another person who had experienced torture, was against it as well. Amazing how anyone ever tortured is against it. amazing how the most passionately against it are those who it has been used upon. amazing how the terrorists we are using it on now, and yes we are still doing it you blind fucktards, are really just defending their homeland from foreign invaders. we are torturing people for being patriotic. we are sacrificing everything we fought, bled, killed, and died for in order to torture patriots. we are truly scum. but of course, the technique is what is so constructive. how fucking pathetic can a person get? please get a life. it is fucking torture. it is wrong. and all you can do is discuss technique. and i am the sociopath? how fucking retarded are you people? it's not even childish, its too fucking sick and stupid for that. you are just fucking retarded.
Hey Ron...
It seems to me your comments prove one thing: you like to have sex with men but can't admit it.
Karen -
Only a coward will inflict pain on someone that is powerless. Only a coward will throw away their most cherished principles because they're frightened. Only a coward will build a rationalization that will allow them to engage in evil acts on another person and make it sound like they're doing some brave and noble.
Winston Churchill forbade the use of torture against Nazis under any circumstances. Was he a "pussy"? Do you think he wanted to tuck Hitler in with milk and cookies?
There is no connection between being a nation that adheres to its own laws and principles and "cozying up to terrorists." We don't torture because, for 200 years, we have stood for the value that it is wrong and illegal. It has nothing to do with what somebody else does or doesn't do. We don't torture because as soon as we create an exception for anyone, then we open the door to doing it to anyone else.
Yes, I'm an idealist. And my dad, grandfather, and father-in-law fought in four wars to protect the ideals that we should all stand for, regardless of the threat. To give up those ideals out of fear dishonors their sacrifices, and the sacrifices of every soldier who is or has ever served in our names.
[...] The Raw Story
Nice... but let's hope that blowhard Hannity makes good on his promise to be waterboarded for charity.
before i go to bed,, i just wanted to say one last thing to the piece of shit pierre. the only good thing i can think about you is that you are not from this country. that is the only good thing. now tell me, how does talking about your fantasy of being a torture expert provide construction? how does the technique of a barbaric act opposed to the morality of a barbaric act remain so much greater a bar in your spoiled bitch eyes? is it just some sick sexual fantasy you have on having power over another? is that your idea of constructive dialogue? the best way to torture someone? that is constructive? you are scum. you are what our forebears fought against. you are the exact psychological profile of hte nazis you so snobbishly tell me that i need to study. i don't have to restudy them. i've studied my history. for five fucking years as an academic. not on a pseudo-sexual torture orum as yourself. fuck you as a sub=human sociopath. if you understood psychology you would know yourself a bit more. so tell us all fucktard, just what is it that your conversation does that might be considered constructive? outside of nazi germany or guantanamo bay or egyptian prisons? just what free society would consider your constructive discourse helpful at all? just your little fantasy world. a world in which you have never had to bleed for. a world in which you have never had to stand up to anyone in a kill or be killed situation. especially one fairly even in the odds of surviving. in other words, your very discussion marks you as the weak little spoiled bitch you are. someone who has never had to strive for anything, just had it handed over to them. someone who hasn't suffered, knows nothing of suffering. yet, your constructive debate is supposed to clear everything up. only in your fucking retarded sick fantasy world. fuck off, in any country you are nothing.
what a little pussy ... could we test someone who didn't drown as a kid and does not have a phobia to water?
How about you, Mr. Doe?
[...] Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture [...]
Like Jessie Ventura says, these Republicans are a bunch of chicken hawks that did nothing but hide from the horrors of war themselves, and yet they want to send everyone else off to die for their ideals - and torture anyone they can to try and establish links for their false claims leading to war. What REALLY depresses me about America is hearing that Chenney's approval is up since appearing all over the MSM these days. America is truly hopeless beyond belief!
It's obvious that water boarding is torture, which is illegal in the States.
So why don't "we" water board all of the Rs and all of the Ds (except Kucinich) because they were complicit in letting this happen?
There were 44 briefings on this. Therefore, no D had the brains to figured out that torture was going on? DUH.
Those who were paying attention among the general public knew it was going on during the war demonstrations. There were plenty of us who knew this was going on. When you look at the pictures of the protests, you will see the protesters had words about torture on their placards/protest signs.
Why didn't these useless Ds just look at the protesters' signs to see what was going on if they were supposedly that clueless (which I don't believe for a moment).
WATER BOARD THEM ALL. THESE USELESS PARASITIC WAR CRIMINAL SCUM.
And now War Criminal messiah Obushma is "looking forward" and doing all he possibly can to "sweep it under the rug."
Water board them all---BOTH D AND R---for as long as the longest prisoner was water boarded.
[...] Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds The Raw Story
[...] proclaims “This (his nighmares) too shall pass”; Our friends at The Raw Story are in deep discussion as [...]
Folks, let's deal with some FACTS here, shall we?
First fact: We, that is the US of A, EXECUTED Japanese prison camp officers for waterboarding OUR people during WWII. If prosecution is good enough for them, it's good enough for OUR people who did the same thing. After all, THEY were in much closer to that doomsday scenario in THEIR country than we have ever been in OURS.
Second fact: Ronald Reagan signed an international treaty that stated clearly that torture was NEVER justified, regardless of what made up "if my kids" type of scenario you were in. Not national fear, not war, not terrorism, NOTHING. NO reason. PERIOD. For those of you who want to scream about "liberals this" and "liberals that", notice again who it was that signed that treaty. YOUR object of worship, REAGAN. Not Clinton, Not Jimmy Carter, NOT ANY of the "liberal" presidents that you scorn and belittle. YOUR president. Try living up to his example for a change.
Third fact: There is no such thing as "minor torture". There are very clear definitions IN that treaty that Reagan signed that specifically state that ANYTHING listed in it are considered torture. Therefore, ALL of them ARE torture, no exceptions.
Fourth fact: Torture of ANY kind is ILLEGAL, both nationally AND internationally. I know that this means nothing to those of you who live by your fear, but at what point does the law mean ANYTHING to you? You can't brag about us being a nation of laws and then sell out that very rule the moment that you are afraid. If you who consider yourselves righties insist on calling the rest of us soft because we want to live up to the ideals and laws of this country, then you have GOT to question your own belief in this country and what it stands for. What is "conservative" about throwing away everything that your country has always stood for the minute you get fearful?
Fifth fact: NO ONE has been talking about coddling, kissing the asses of or in any way being soft on anyone who actually was involved in hurting this country. NON ONE is talking about letting anyone loose on the streets of America, regardless of what Senator Thune says. NO ONE. All we want is for the laws of this country to apply to everyone, just like we were always TOLD they did. If they have solid, legally obtained evidence against these guys, then take them to court and get convictions. If they can't get convictions, then these guys will be deported for the very fact that they are NOT citizens and have no standing to be here. If WE hadn't kidnapped them and locked them up with NO charges, they WOULDN'T be here or under our control at all.
Sixth fact: There are clear and obvious memos that have been released that show that the torture was NOT to save anyone's lives, it was to make a case for invading Iraq. NO lives were saved by this torture, but we have killed at least 30 people with this "enhanced interrogation" crap. And that is what has to be called MURDER. People have been beaten to the point of death, and that is most definitely one definition of murder, is it not?
Seventh fact: W said, even before his appointment to the presidency, that he WANTED to invade Iraq and finish the job his Daddy didn't do. He most definitely had the invasion of Iraq in mind when he ran for the office, and never lost it once he was in the office. Everything he did was an effort to build a case to do that very thing. It's no surprise that he found one, even if he had to brow beat and cajole everyone around him into it.
There has been NO evidence released that torturing anyone made anyone safer or saved a single life. Cheney, one of the first ones to be prosecuted should justice actually be done, is the only person out there that keeps saying that it did. He is trying to save his ass from having to face justice for his illegal actions. This country is better than that, if our history is to be believed. Other people wanted to come here BECAUSE we treated people fairly, or at least far more than where they came from.
Now, for those who want to shout at me because I stated something they disagree with, sorry, but they are facts. You can't dispute them, they are the truth. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. And calling me or anyone else any name you want won't change the fact that this country can either stand by it's laws and traditions or it can ignore them and fall because of it.
Oh, and one last thing: The founders of this country were most definitely NOT "conservatives". If they had been, we wouldn't be a country but a colony, still. They were the single most liberal minded people this world had seen. They broke away from the most powerful country in the world and did so to found a country based on the most revolutionary of ideas, that a people can rule itself without a monarchy of any kind. No country in the world had EVER been run that way with the exception of Greece, and the founding fathers of this country took it even further, to declare that men should be able to control their OWN lives. That, my friends, was NOT a conservative idea at that time, it was the furthest thing from it. Perhaps you need to go back to high school and pay attention this time.
allright....I give up. I agree waterboarding those THREE TERRORISTS/BUTCHERS was torture, so lets just start beheading them like they do to others. That way it's just quick and easy, like the videos. Simple choice too, Tell us what you know or we behead you. And after they don't tell us anything and we behead them so they can go see their 72 virgins or whatever, and some more butchers fly some more planes into some more buildings, killing more of your fellow countrymen and women and children....maybe, just maybe the whiners will FINALLY realize that THEY. HATE. AMERICA. And will do whatever they can to HARM AND KILL US. Where is jack Bauer when we need him? Maybe we should throw some peace and love toward North Korea while we're toweling off the waterboardees...ya think???
"mike
Tever,
With all due respect, mancow submitted himself to something far more difficult that waterboarding." [and how does Mike "know" this? Why he is a "theoritician", whatever the fuck that is.]
"He submitted himself to drowning in my opinion. It may seem like a small difference, but I think that completely cutting off oxygen to the nose and then pouring water directly into the mouth, without a cloth over it, is much worse than what I've seen other journalists go through." [And how many non-journalists have you witnessed being waterboarded? NONE. So, you are just guessing, making shit up, Mr. Theoritician", go figure.]
"I am on the fence, as a theoritician as to whether true WB is torture, and whether or not we should use it (after all, no one was on Clinton for rendition), but I am pretty sure than no one would be able to last long with ZERO oxygen, which is what mancow got."
[Which is exactly what happened to those being subjected to waterboarding torture: zero oxygen and the sense of drowning.]
Seriously "Mike" you need to STFU asap. This isn't something funny, or up to debate. Like Ventura said, in less than 6 seconds, we can get all you brave talkers to confess to killing the Easter Bunny with water boarding.
You're not "being tough", you're not "keeping us safe": you are a fucking embarrassment to my country.
The definition of torture taken from Webster's states that torture is the "agony of body or mind", or "something that causes agony or pain". So, is water boarding torture? The simple answer is yes, and according to the definition, one might be able to argue that any interrogation is torture since it is "agony of the mind". Having said that, however torture has been and will be done to people of all nations, races, and religions until the end of time due to humanities flaws. Are Americans that naive to think that if we stop torture it will miraculously put an end to it across the board? Do we think that the terrorists around the world will be so awe stricken by our "moral fiber", or our so called "change" that Obama Administration has eloquently spun and pulled over the weak minded? We are all ignorant fools if we believe that we can change human nature. Human's weak and corruptible nature from birth prevents us from ever achieving any sort of overall collaboration. It is a fact that we are innately evil. If you think back on your childhood or even observe a small child you will realize that we don't have to be taught to do bad, we do it by almost instinct. We do, however have to be taught from birth to do good. It is only after humanity as a whole acknowledges their flaws that true peace will ever happen.
Since the GOP is so bent out of shape to conduct hearings into Pelosi statements- does that mean they admit they did conducted torture, if so lets move on this and get darth Cheney and friends off to prision.
[...] Cow, decided to man up, and get himself water boarded. He thought it wouldn’t be torture, but it took 6 seconds to prove himself wrong, and to admit [...]
And he wasn't even restrained while undergoing the procedure -- waterboarding is intentionally simulating drowning, has resulted in fatalities, injury in the form of long lasting harm to the heart and lungs of those undergoing it, not to mention the psychological impacts, and is widely considered one of the cruelest forms of torture due to its duration and repeatability ... it makes me ashamed that our government had condoned waterboarding in the recent past during the Bush administration -- it is a *war crime* and should be investigated, preferably by our own Department of Justice, but if not then by a United Nations tribunal ...
[...] on air. "He's going to wiggle, he's going to scream, he's going to wish he never did this." The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... Maybe we should waterboard a couple people on here __________________ America 5% of the worlds [...]
"We want to use torture on torture deniers. If they are willing to acknowledge that waterboarding is - in fact - torture, and that torture is wrong; then we have no wish to waterboard Hannity, Rush and Beck."
OK, fine. If that's the logic here ...
All those kool-aid drinking supporters who are denialists about how Obama's policies are destroying jobs - his cap-and-trade that will destroy industrial jobs, his socialist health insurance mandates on employers that will destroy jobs, his 'stimulus bill' that is no stimulus at all but according to GAO will slow growth over 10 year, his higher taxes, his regulatory attacks on industries, his spending that is bankrupting the US and will destroy the credit rating and the financial stability of the US...
All those denialists of the sorry-ass consequences of obama's bad economic policies need to become unemployed NOW ... to feel what it's really like to suffer the consequences of their denial.
Understand?
Travis...
Stop denying your homosexuality. You love black men. It's OK.
Understand?
wow the marine seems very proud about being a professional at this sort of thing...i hope he sleeps well at night. also by the way any one who's for this act of inhumanity, the definition of torture is extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. so how exactly didn't simulated drowning fall into that category? pull your head out yours ass's you arrogant fucks.
He's a radio host, not a patriot. He cares more about the dollar than the Constitution, which is most people...sadly.
Who cares about this bozo? Is he gonna suddenly be all 9/11 was an inside job? no. It's just a publicity stunt.
We won't see him talking about any truth that his masters don't want him talking about.
Whaaah, these poor torture victims would slash your throats in a second, given the chance.
I was just searching for about this when I came upon your blog post. I'm just visiting to say that I very much liked seeing this post, it's very clear and well written. Are you planning towrite more on this? It seems like there is more depth here for more posts.
Absolutely torture
9/11 has yet to be transparently investigated.
in the mean time 100 prisoners of war have died in U.S AND BRITISH CUSTODY
3 COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN INVADED
CIVILIANS WIPED OUT
SO..................
NOW THAT RIGHT WING HAS ADMITTED IT'S TORTURE TO DROWN SOMEONE
INVESTIGATE GROUND ZERO OF THE WAR ON TERROR IE WAR ON THE WEAK
AND THE POOR
Jules wrote this drivel:
"Whaaah, these poor torture victims would slash your throats in a second, given the chance."
-----------------------------------------------
Man, some people who don't think for themselves are such suckers for Bush/Cheney lies.
Jules, how do you know that these prisoners are "terrorists?" First of all, Iraq never attacked the U.S. They had no WMDs. So, why are there prisoners in Guantánamo from Iraq?
Secondly, these prisoners have had no trial, no hearing, NOTHING as far as justice. How do you know they have committed any crime at all? (You don't). Or is that putting facts in the way?
A good "Amerikun" never lets facts get in the way. They buy all the propaganda that their Cheney/Bush rabid government feeds them.
Some people do not deserve "America."
That marine is disgusting. He is quite proud of what he does, and takes pleasure is announcing that the radio host will "scream like a little girl". Behavior like that further disgraces our military personnel...even more than they already are.
Being an European all of this just makes me laugh... HARD!!
To people saying that the rest of the world want to nuke the US BACK to the dark ages:
Nuking is not the equivalent of time travelling!!! DOOH!!!
To people saying that they would do anything to save they children from the mall, where the terrorists had held them:
You can start helping by preventing that THE KIDS carry GUNS to the Mall. Terrorists have no interest at all in your hillybilly mall in redneck country. You know why? They are more intelligent than that!!!
This guy, ManCow is just a very sad (and because it is sad it is hilarious) of the America that we, in Europe, mostly despise.
Fortunately, there is another America that we are now starting to rediscover, that we respect and love.
What this guy did is awesome. I respect him tremendously for doing this.
A lot of people here say they want to see other conservative talk show host do this, and they say it with hate in their hearts. I mean them no harm, but in the interest of objectivity, I would also like to see more pro-waterboarding people give it a try! How can you say its not torture if you are not willing to do it? Do it in exactly the same manner as its done to suspected terrorists.
Ughh, lots of comments about whether it was torture or not or 'correct' or not...Who cares? If it means 1k a second to that and similar charities, who's got the sign-up sheet?
[...] The Raw Story
I was just googling around about this when I stumbled on your blog post. I'm just visiting to say that I definitely liked seeing this post, it's really clear and well written. Are you going to blog more about this? It looks like there's more material here for more posts.
Bill, says "If they are a terrorist leader..." blah blah blah
I says if they come from a country who's estimates on death tolls vary by millions, continuously interferes with sovereign countries, and have a history of WMD usage, and over 200 bio weapon labs, they still have rights! - Yes, even you stupid American bastards have rights (real one's, not the immunity you claim), but your leaders will burn, and a few of you might not die protecting them. See you in hell
"But the CIA claims that they used a cloth and the subjects were under constant supervision for signs of extreme distress."
To believe in what the CIA claims: mistake
That the subjects were under constant supervision is stating the obvious: they were being torutured and questioned. What did you expect? Remote interrogation? A Japanese robot performing the WB operations while the guys in Langley pushed some star-trek like knobs?
Signs of Extreme Distress: These people were captured, put on ugly orange suits, hoods on their heads, blindfolded and taken to secret locations: They were ALREADY, surely, showing signs of EXTREME DISTRESS.
If you don't believe it please just let someone do that to you: kidnapp you and take you away from your habitat.
Torture, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, Wikipedia and Facebook.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing at Gitmo.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting illegal wars without declaration.
Impeach them all (both parties) and save this great country.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000083883
They didn't even strap him down?
The "torturer" was friendly?
The "torturer" stopped when the "victim" said so?
Nobody demanded a false confession?
It didn't last half an hour?
They waterboard tortured him only once?
What a bunch of pussy ass thugs!
Except, that's not how waterboarding is usually done you mindless, angry sheep. I've never seen them simply pour water down the person's throat and nose. Usually it's through a cloth and it's a few drops at a time. Utterly dishonest and idiotic video. Not surprising that the liberals would fall for it. Sick, sad, and disgusting.
@Wonko
Having to wear 'ugly orange suits' might qualify as inducing 'Extreme Distress' in some places, but I'm not sure it adds much to your sound point in this case. Would white jumpers have been better? Blue? How about a nice tan or drab so as to not stand out so much?
Sorry, just having some fun with the comment.
I was just now searching around about this when I discovered your blog post. I'm just visiting to say that I definitely liked reading this post, it is very clear and well written. Are you thinking of posting more about this? It looks like there's more depth here for later posts.
"The average person can take this for 14 seconds". 14 seconds? Have these people not heard of holding their breath. Atleast you would then last 1 minute and 14 seconds.
No form of torture is acceptable!
"No form of torture is acceptable!" Yeah! And I'm sure you really stick it to the Muslims for what they do to our troops!! Whoo hoo! Bandwagon jumping simpleton.
Your such a PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! grow a set and go over and fight for your country and see what that is like being gone for 18 months and putting up with bullets gone by your head!
going
long live empathy!
I am not an American. The U.S.A. is fighting illegal wars and using illegal torture on prisoners of its own wars. The argument is not whether these tortures were used in a demonstration in the same manner they were used by American citizens. The argument should be "How can the world stop the use of torture" and "How can those who gaves the orders to use torture, those who approved of these actions, those who implemented these illegal acts and those who condoned and continue to condone these illegal acts can be brought to justice. A country without a justice system that works is a country without a justice system and is certainly not a country that can be called a "democracy" The U.S.A. is certainly devoid of justice!
Let that be a lesson to you, Mancow.
WAR CRIMES.
PROSECUTE.
PROSECUTE.
PROSECUTE.
Patriots=anti-torturers.
torturers=anti-American.
Any questions?
[...] and lasts six seconds before saying its torture Posted on May 23, 2009 by brisbanechange Raw Story Friday, May 22, [...]
Every attempt to defend Cheney ends up in backfire and embarassment. A GOP implosion as if it were being Thermated by their own wingnuts. Just gimme some Truth
To all you non-Americans I have this to say: We are debating, many condeming the behavior of the USA in the cases in which there is fault.
We Americans, by and large, do not just salute and accept, we argue and debate and hopefully arrive at a better place.
Torture shames me as an American but I'm proud of the fact that, by and large, we do not just accept, we hope to resolve, to improve, to recognize and hopefully ultimatly make right our shortcomings.
Yes, there are some here who seem to be on the torture bandwagon. They are full of hatred and fear. Overwhelmed by it. Forgive them for they know not what they do.
We're far from perfect (though neither are any of you, and you know that), but we're trying to be better and will continue to strive to be better.
Rather than constant recriminations, a little help and support might help us bring about the improvements we all look forward to.
Kev
San Francisco, CA
that should be...using whatever means necessary to obtain potential info on other terrorist attacks that KILL INNOCENT AMERICAN CITIZENS=protecting your ass! Keeping in mind of course..... that THEY want to SLICE OFF YOUR HEAD! AT ALL COSTS! THEY HATE AMERICA! maybe if we have a little sit down with the rad muslims they'll come to realize that head-lobbing is really not a good thing and we'll all just get along....
"The U.S.A. is certainly devoid of justice!" Yeah! Just let us know when you have a tsunami or AIDS crisis, and we'll throw a few billion your way.
I can only quote:
"That a nation grandiosely referring to itself as the world’s lone ‘superpower’ would, on the basis of very thin manufactured evidence stoop to such behavior as using sodomy (even against innocent children), cramming people into coffin-like boxes, chaining them in stress positions, karate-kicking them (even to death), suffocating them, slamming their heads into walls, taking away their clothing, freezing them, using sensory deprivation and drowning, plus a hundred other cruel measures gives the lie to that assertion. An evil power, certainly. Hardly a ‘shining city on a hill’.
And now that we know that orders for torture came right from the very top of the unrepentant Bush Administration even before the twisted entitlement of the Yoo/Bybee memos, and even as it is revealed that torture was employed not to gain information but to bolster the false assertion that Saddam Hussein had ties to Al Qaeda and thus justify the indefensible invasion of Iraq, we are treated to ad nauseam appearances by the previously mute and bunkered Dick Cheney defending his cretinous actions and calling for more of the same. It is unbelievable that a nation that calls itself Christian could even countenance a debate on torture, and, after killing perhaps a million innocent Iraqi citizens in an illegal war, call for more of the same in Afghanistan. Or to employ white phosphorous and other war crime weapons in either location. The combination of hypocrisy and self-serving delusion is stunning. These ‘Christians’ are statistically more likely to favor torture than non-believers. " (John H. Hatch, in "Torture and 9/11")
This is when a "great" nation hits the skids, just like Soviet Russia in thrall to collective brain-washing.
I doubt many of the people reading this thread will reach my post. But what I would like to suggest to those out there feeling as if the world is crashing around them. It isn't. This will not end a thing.
To end the suffering we must do one thing. We must accept each other for who we are. Which is a very unique mix of people. Around the globe we all believe in very different ideals. That is what leads us to such acts as waterboarding... and far worse.
What we do now... today... is what matters for the people in the generations to come. Sadly we humans are not ready to take that on for our future generations.
Nothing will ever control the human spirit. WE must accept that or we will never have peace.
I hope for children to come... I hope you see that
Another liberal thought... thank you
Why do people make such hurtful comments?
I will say it, I am a conservative, but I really don't think that matters anyway. Both sides are represented in my comment.
For the first set of unnecessarily hurtful comments (by liberals): "Typical pussy republican, all tough until the actual shit hits the fan. Then they cry like a baby."
- Dave
What provoked this? I don't understand what causes the desire to attack? Why are all conservatives suddenly pussies because one person tried it and changed his mind? If what he felt makes him a pussy, why do we call it torture?
For the initial responses (by conservatives): Why would you fight fire with fire? I too was upset by these comments, but it is not appropriate to attack back. What does that accomplish?
For everyone yelling at each other later on (both sides): Why do you care so much what some random person on the internet says about you? Especially if it is something so blatantly ignorant (again, everyone is guilty). Why lash out in response? Why stoop down to their level? A much better, and more convincing response is to ignore the harmful words, and give a counter argument calmly.
Why are people so mean to each other? Why must political arguments always end in people attacking each others characters?
To address the article.
It was a flawed experiment.
Waterboarding is not done like that. The mouth is covered so water isn't poured directly into the nose and mouth. There is also not nearly that much water that fast. According to the CIA, it is administered for 20 seconds using a canteen cup (holds 1 quart) or small watering can. A quart in 20 seconds, not 3 quarts in 6 seconds. The water was hitting him 12 times as fast as how it is done by the military. Sorry, but I think that to call him a pussy because he cant handle waterboarding x12 is just wrong. And I don't even agree with waterboarding as an interrogation technique.
Now, bring on the hate comments, I can't wait to read about how much of a conservative pussy I am.
so what if its torture? we should step it up a notch. it saves lives. pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.
Kev: The people of Viet Nam, the people of Iraq, the people of Iran, the people of Afganistan, the people of Central America, the people of South America, the people of the wrold who have lost family and friends from the guns and soldiers of the U.S.A. (who never allowed any of them to debate whether or not they wanted to be invaded) all are pleased that you are debating on trivialities while they continue to be shot by the bullets of your leaders who also do not want to hear your debate (or maybe they do as long as you let them keep on with their killing and their personal accumulation of wealth.
scottfree wrote this drivel:
"so what if its torture? we should step it up a notch. it saves lives. pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent."
-------------------------------
Some people do not deserve "America." You are one of them.
You have to actually admit, that guy lacks imagination but he is able to keep his own word. Much more than all others republicans and most democrats.
geez i could hold my breath longer than 4 seconds lol This seems played out...
"..The Conservative lasted only half the time of the average person. That sounds about right. Conservatives are all talk. In the heat of battle they fold quickly..."
Sorry Phil...jackass....but the VAST majority of combat personel...people who volunteer and do their duty are conservatives
У автора очень приятный слог
Here's one from dutch radio dj Giel Beelen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJSIcY3LX4
it's is spoken in Dutch, but you'll get the point.
It's a bit more extreme than the Mancow version.
[...] Source:http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/ [...]
Its not about waterboarding at all. On May 7 2004 Senator Linsey Graham from South Carolina told the press that he had witnessed through videos and pictures, rape, torture and murder. That was 5 freaking years ago. These crimes have not stopped. Obama is guilty of war crimes as well.
Let's see Mankow and his wife shackled to a chair while some monster sodomizes their children. I wonder how many seconds of that he can endure. It is a war crime to imprison children. It is a war crime to interogate children. It is a war crime to conspire to hide the evidence of these crimes. That's why Senator Graham raced to tell the press because he knew, once he had seen the evidence, that he would be prosecuted for not divulging what he had seen.
Truth is treason in the empire of lies.
[...] source [...]
[...] Posted by BadHairDẵy Source: The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... A video of the waterboarding is in the source. Finally someone voluntarilly getting waterboarded. [...]
No shit it's torture. It's an interrogation technique used by the military to get TERRORIST SAVAGES to talk. Have all of you liberal idiots forgot what kind of world we live in? Water Boarding is incredibly tame compared to the methods used by terrorist organizations on their subjects. It's honestly mind boggling how so many of you liberal Hollywood loving idiots are such fucking clueless sheep. Have fun when China takes over the world and complaining openly is punishable by prison sentences.
The number of cowardly fucking redneck traitors who continuously espouse their bullhit that the "other" side is so much worse make my airborne ass want to puke. Not a single one of you has the balls to go on the line, you are far too cowardly, just like bush, cheney, rumsfeld, and even obama (he won't prosecute or investigate so he is guilty of being an accessory after the fact. he also hasn't ended rendition, nor is he getting rid of the treasonous patriot act (voted for it) the military commissiona act, or a number of things. he is bush 2. just more horrific with a polished spin on his turd of politics). We are now a nation of thugs who are in reality torturing patriots. That's right, we illegally invaded a sovereign nation. The iraqis are fighting for their homeland against the nazi americans. therefore we are torturing patriots. All of you thugs who promote torture can suck my ass. you have defamed the blood I've shed. my own and others. my friends dying for the CONSTITUTION, and anyone who has ever died for it as well. you don't even have the courage to stand up against a shadow. what a pathetic bunch of cowards. fuck you thugs, for that is all you people advocating torture are: just a bunch of cowardly thugs. You are standing there shaking in your boots that someone might do something back to us after all the atrocities we inflict upon the world. how pathetic. no wonder our government has shredded the contitution. it's people are far too ignorant and savage to deserve such a beautiful document. it takes balls to preserve it, something you cowards advocating torture don't have. you make me sick with your redneck treasonous arguments based on your piss-in-your-pants level of cowardness.
Your awful spelling (you have spell check readily available for fuck sake) run on sentences, mindless ranting, ridiculous generalizations and awful wall-of-text make your post barely readable. Seriously though, did you even graduate from high school?
maybe I am just too goddamn mad after reading all the redneck cowards posts who advocate getting rid of everything the constitution stands for in order to save their pussy asses. fuck you. went through college, but am so fucking pissed at the level of pussiness demonstrated by all these cowards that have defamed all we soldiers stood for. don't need to spell correctly to have served. ten years service. airfuckingborne. all the time i've had on the front lines, bleeding myself, and others, and having friends die for the name of the constitution mean nothing when we have a nation of cowardly fucking thugs who have thrown it away with their cowardliness. is that better for you, you fucking fucktard?
[...] [...]
Hey folks- whether you're talking about it's effectiveness or the morality of it, when you are debating TORTURE, your country is lost and YOU are lost. If you don't see it that way, it's because you're already lost.
It's OVER.
[...] The Raw Story » Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its... Within six seconds called quits and declared it to be torture. (tags: conservative radio torture politics waterboarding usa humanrights security) [...]
I agree that anything including but not limited to: waterboarding, slapping, hitting, discomfort positions, etc IS TORTURE! We treat the worst of the worst prisioners with decency and being locked up is dehumanizing enough. I'm a classic Conservative Republican and wish that the leaders of the party would wake the f*ck up! Not all of us are Neo-cons and want to police the world. A majority of us believe in real conservative values. For example: everyone considered a consenting adult should be able to marry (under a god or not) anyone that wishes to marry them. Didn't we go through all this before when african americans couldn't get married, and when women couldn't vote??? Seriously, everyone gets equal rights PERIOD. Even terrorists, otherwise if we treat them differently we are fueling their fire for Americans being hypocrites and recruiting more Islam extremists to their cause. Why isn't anyone just applying the first 10 great amendments to our Constitution to every situation? Give them a lawyer, gather evidence and have court with a jury if the defendent so chooses and then follow through with the rule of law! Hey, it worked for "evil" Sadam Hussien; what are the Neo-cons so afraid of...?
Are you serious? You think a mall is going to be taken over by terrorists and one left is going to have the info that will defuse the bomb and save the day? You watch entirely too much TV including shows like "24". The likelihood of something like your kid being in the mall when terrorists take it over are laughable. Then add in all the talk about one surviving terrorist can help you. I haven't seen any brown people attack us. We have too many questions about 9/11 to believe it was solely some terrorists from a cave armed with box cutters.
@#39 Bill who said "If your kid was at the mall and the mall has been taken over by terrorists. They have one guy that knows where a bomb is inside there or knows a weak link in the operation. Give a parent a table fullof carpenter tools and what would you do to save your kid? I have no limit. I would use every tool on the table if it meant I oculd save my kid as well as countless others."
I find it pathetic that so many people are still stuck in the left/right paradigm. Don't you know that both Dems and Repubs are puppets of the same controllers? Namely zionist bankers... Do you remember when the first 800 billion dollar bailout came through under Bush? Paulson showed up with a 2 page paper which said nothing! One of the few brave congressmen who stood up to these facists said on CSPAN that they were threatened in the private meeting that if they didn't pass the bill for the money, there would be martial law. Since when do bankers have more control than our congress? That is not the way it is supposed to be.
So all this arguing about "liberals are hateful because they want conservatives waterboarded" is a bunch of crap. For 8 years under Bush and a Republican controlled Congress, Democrats were banished from meetings, votes, etc. THey had their microphones shut off, the lights turned off, etc. anytime they tried to bring up any of this information to us, the public. The level of secrecy was ridiculous. And now we are finding out what they were keeping secret. It was torture, the collapse of the dollar, the total control of AIPAC over congress, etc. So get over yourselves about this whole lame left vs. right nonsense. That just shows how ignorant you really are. You can't believe anything you are told on tv news. Get your news from the net through indy sources like whatreallyhappened.com, whatdoesitmean.com , truthseekers.uk, informationclearinghouse.com, nogw.com, and http://www.uruknet.info.
And Jim Lunsford.... I couldn't agree more. All these pussies in America who are willing to give up their rights for this false sense of security makes me sick. America should be renamed from 'the land of the brave' to the 'land of the cowards'./ And no, I do NOT support the troops when they are a bunch of rapists who buttfuck Iraqi children in front of their mothers.
Dave 271, you are an ignorant punk piece of shit.
Bush - We do not torture.
Yeah, and we have a constitution as well. It's in the trash bin under the papershredder, but it's still there.
We don't apply the ten ammendments because the constitution no longer applies in this country. Only police states torture. Ergo: we are a police state. Ergo: no need for a constitution which is based on freedom of the people and self-governance in a police state in which cowards rule and invade sovereign nations for the benefit of the financially elite. Certainly not killing for democracy or jesus.
Well, maybe jesus if you have ever watched the pat robertson hate-filled anti-christian channel. the real jesus advocated love, not torture. ergo: the christians advocating torture are really anti-christians as well as cowards underserving of freedom.
Dave 271 - after 2 seconds you would have ratted out john mcain and your mother for having sex with goats....
I don't even support the wars I have been a part of anymore. We were all traitors. Back then, we didn't have the resources to learn what treasons we had participated in. With the internet, there is no other excuse but ignorance, blind patriotism (which is the opposite of what the founding fathers espoused, they would have called these people traitors. which they are.), and pure fucking cowardliness. Not to mention that dave of 271, I must heartily confirm you are a fucking retarded traitor who doesn't have the balls to support the constitution. you are a coward.
yes, but didn't his mother really have sex with goats? that would explain his retardedness. don't let one truthful confession sink us all! lol
[...] Muller decided he’d get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn’t torture. full story (No Ratings Yet) Related posts:From OlbermannRadio host charged with “promoting” [...]
And let's not forget "PrisonPlanet.com". Strange how his news is more accurate in it's predictions than the new york slimes (lying since at least 1875). This is a police state. We torture. That is proof. The tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists are right on that one for sure. So, you believe your government?
We do not torture - George W Bush (aka a lying sack of draft-dodging treasonous cowardly fucking shitbag)
Never let Erich "Mancow" Muller try to do a Man's Job
sex with goats??? Really classy...and you would have been praising Allah and waiting to see your virgins right before the rad muslim extremeist quickly pulled his hand to the side and LOBBED OFF YOUR FUCKING HEAD! Remember that gurgling sound the victims made as their throats were slashed in the videos?? Reminds me of the gurgling sounds when someone is being waterboarded. but...oh, wait...I forgot..the people who were waterboarded and making those gurgling sounds are...STILL ALIVE!! THEY HATE AMERICA AND WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO HARM US-24/7.
To Bill [comment #39 ] *
Bill, I'm afraid you missed the issue. The issue is not whether you or I would torture a kidnapper/bomber to save our kids. I too, if I knew for certain, or even just deeply believed that some criminal was going to kill my kids and I could stop it by getting some information out of them, would torture them too,** just as you would.
But what you and I would do to save our kids has *nothing* to do with the issue. The Issue is whether the USA, Us, The "good guys" {and I firmly believe we are the good guys}, should ever have torture as an official policy. If America does the same evil things the bad guys do, then we ARE the bad guys too.
In the heat of battle under desperate situations any person will do desperate things, evil things, even rationalizing that evil as the "lesser evil" being done to prevent harm to others. That is the normal human condition. But when a government has an official policy of doing evil, then that government IS evil.
Is America Evil? I believe we are not. I do not think that we (America) never does anything wrong, but until the gwb administration, We never had a national policy of torture. We have done many good things in our history, and we have done many bad things in our history and I am sure we will make more mistakes but We MUST NOT follow a path of deliberate immoral acts like torture as a NATIONAL POLICY!
Having such a policy puts us on the same level as other "axis of Evil" nations who routinely violate people's human rights by torturing and murdering. The rights that our founders specifically named as the reasons for Creating America!
Bill, you and I as parents will do what we need to do to protect or save our families, friends and neighbors. But our country must never waver from the good and righteous path our founders chose when they created our country in order to save us from the evil being done to us at the time.
During the American Revolutionary war the military forces of the English Monarchy committed acts of unbelievable horror upon the population of entire colonial cities. One incident in particular comes to mind: an entire town of people was boarded up inside a church and then the church was burned to ground with the people inside it. Other cities were put to the torch. People were routinely tortured.
America must never be perceived as just another "Axis of evil" style country. America's special role as the leader of the entire world exists only because of the policies and guaranteed rights our founders chose when they created the United States of America.
Real Republicans understand the choices and principles the original and REAL Republicans, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington ***
made when they created our nation.
Republicans today are nothing but a bunch of small minded greedy businessmen intent on getting theirs no matter what the cost to others or themselves. Sadly, the religious of our country are being used as toolz (spelling deliberate) to commit acts they SHOULD find totally repulsive. What would Jesus do? Torture? Mame and mutilate people's genitals? Rip their arms out of their shoulder sockets? Not the Jesus I know.
Bill - you and I are only human. Simple men in a complicated world. What we would do in a desperate situation has absolutely no connection to what our Country should have as a National policy.
**[And I would be subject to criminal prosecution after the fact. At least a charge of felony mayhem (much worse than felony assault). No doubt I would be found guilty and sentenced to some prison time and probation due to my otherwise clean record and the extenuating circumstances]
***[ and many many others, Madison, Adams, Revere, and on and on. ]
* This composition does not adhere to the current so called rules of English composition. [Some people refer to "standard English" which is frankly laughable. PLEASE point me to that "standard" and name the organization that defines, approves and publishes it.
] Instead it uses the structure of the E2 language, which is loosely based on English but has a formally evolving set of standards designed to make the language more consistent and better used for communication.
note = "mame" in the above comment by this author should be "maim"
Wow, that looked awful.
To JeffK: I am with you on many values, but I disagree on one point. We are the evil empire. We went to war based upon factually wrong data induced from torture. We are still at that war, which has killed over 1 million iraqi patriots defending their homeland from a fascist government hell bent on building an empire for profit. And yes, we are fascist. That would be a corporate government. Think of our elections, which are financed by murderous corporations such as monsanto, shell, etc. We are the evil that is most against the constitution. Cowards torture. Those that keep screaming about chopping heads off people miss the point that we are those terrorists in the mall killing the kids. We are the ones who invaded illegally. We are the ones that support a known war criminal bush by not impeaching, putting him on trial, and if found guilty, executing for treason. Those who support the cowardly position of torture have slandered everything the constitution stood for. Past tense is used as when torture is a national policy, this constitution no longer applies. We are a police state, and all those who support torture support the destruction of everything the constitution and those who bled for it stood for. In other words, they are nothing but cowardly traitors.
only they're not coming for just YOUR kids or MY KIDS. They're gunning for LOTS of kids and anybody else they can kill. So let me ask this....seriously. What SHOULD we do if we have a radical Muslim prisoner whom we believe has intimate knowledge of an impending attack on some group, somewhere in the world and, after asking nicely if he or she would mind sharing that information....refuses????
hey choirboy, why don't you get it that they are not coming over here? we are going over there to kill their kids. torture their kids. invading their countries. maybe you should be tortured by them, you seem to be one of the cowardly nazi gestapho types. what a fucking retarded treasonous douchebag.
Hey choirboy, why not go back to your hate-filled anti-christian pat robertson choir practice you fucking retard. they are not coming over here. we ARE over there. We are torturing them for standing up to the evil nazi empire invading THEIR country. Though we deserve to have them strike us down for all the crimes our country has inflicted upon them, they have not done so yet. however, with ignorant fucking cowards like you espousing torture for patriots, I am sure the situation you describe could happen. what a fucking retarded treasonous coward you are. how fucking pathetic can a person be. you are wiping your ass with the consttution because you don't have the balls needed to stand up for it. you should be shot alongside bush, cheney, and the rest of the sellouts. fuck you, I'd like to be on that firing squad.
Sigh. Like a child who must learn the hard way, this idiot learned the hard way. Instead of just listening to legal experts who have stated, ad nauseum, that torture is illegal, and to those who do the actual interrogating who have stated, ad nauseum, that torture doesn't work, and that waterboarding is torture, this pussy needs to be waterboarded in order to finally be convinced that, yes, it IS torture. What a fucking idiot.
Waterboard the rest of the cowards on the ridiculous right - I can guarantee they'll shit their pants and cry for mommy before you even put the cloth across their faces.
Ticking timebomb, my ass. It's just another tool in the ridiculous rights "How to Instill Fear in the Dumbest of American's" playbook, and you assholes fall for it, hook, line, and sinker. Torture isn't going to prevent a 'ticking timebomb' you idiots. Pay attention to those who do the actual interrogations who have repeatedely stated that they can get actionable information WITHOUT TORTURE. Stop paying attention to fat-assed chickenhawks like Dickhead Cheney and Lush Limpballs., both of who deferred military service because of 'other priorities', and an ass pimple, respectively.
And, to those 'brilliant' minds that whine that the detainee's shouldn't be brought to the U.S., I've got a message for you - You fucking idiots, we already house MILLIONS of terrorists in our jails - murderers, rapists, child molesters, the Unibomber, the blink shiek, Jose Padilla, Richard Ried, etc,. etc., etc. Get your heads out of your colossal asses and stop being such fucking moronic sheep for the ridiculous and rabid right. No one has EVER escaped from any of our super-max prisons, and no one is saying they'll be released on our streets. Jesus H. Christ in a fucking wheelchair, you people are fucking gullible FOOLS, and we laugh AT you.
Anyone that believes waterboarding isn't torture, and isn't illegal deserves to be ridiculed ... REPEATEDLY.
I seriously doubt the people waterboarded had toy cows. He should have endured the average time your average muslim fundamentalist-suspect was forced to undergo.
Just sayin'.
[...] http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/ [...]
veonicaf, you forgot some terrorists. bush, cheney, rumsfeld, obama. and many others. yes, obama is obstructing justice by not leading the way to investigate the war crimes. he is actively opposed to it. therefore he is an acessory. all who say let's look forward, are actually obstructing justice. a principle the country was founded upon. however, the cowards who espouse torture know nothing of principle. only fear for their worthless little pathetic lives. if you can call living in their pathetic little fear-filled paranoid worlds living. what a fucking joke asswipes like choirboy prove themselves to be with every key they so fearfully pound. all they do is announce their cowardice with every keystroke. hey choirboy, unlike you I served. I've had the bullets fly over head. I have no problem shooting traitors. unlike you, i do not piss my pants in the face of danger, or most especially the imaginative paranoid illusions you suffer from, please go o.d. on some prozac you turd.
Now let's see Cheney, Bush, Rice, Wolfowitz and the rest of the gang try it.
Golden Rule people, golden rule . . . someone has to carry the torch of basic human decency and respect. This is not a tit for tat world, or at least it shouldn't be.
Of course waterboarding is torture. This argument over the word distracts from whether or not waterboarding was justified. The fact that so much care was taken to make this determination, is evidence that those who are responsible for interrogations take that job very seriously. If one looks at the treatment of our POWs in WW II and Vietnam, a very different picture emerges. Our military personnel were subjected to excruciating pain and torment for entertainment purposes. The Iranian hostages taken from the US embassy were beaten--these were civilians. Like it or not, the captured terrorists were not members of any nation's military, they were not under the laws of the Geneva convention, and they were not subject to the laws of the US. The same terrorists who were waterboarded would not hesitate to bomb innocent Americans. We saw videos of terrorists beheading innocent civilians such as Daniel Pearl--and not quickly using a guillotine, but crudely, with a small knife, hacking away--THAT is torture. I believe waterboarding is more than mere discomfort--it is horrific and terrifying--but the prisoners who were waterboarded by us are a whole new breed of enemy. If the plot to blow up the Lincoln Tunnel or the Golden Gate bridge had succeeded, do you think the victims' suffering would have been any less? No EMTs or doctors would be standing by to rescue them or to make certain that no permanent harm would befall them--people would drown. And let's not forget the pain and suffering inflicted on those inside the WTC and the Pentagon. I'd like to see the naysayers come up with an interrogation technique that elicits the intelligence we need. "Please oh please, Mr. Terrorist, pretty please, tell us when and where your next attack is planned." Cut me a break.
@Arty Vandelay: like every other asshole conservative, you *probably* won't believe it even WITH video. you folks just tend to deny, deny, deny regardless of scientific fact. maybe you'd sign up for some waterboarding yourself? or pull a Hannity and just talk the talk?
what will it take for people like you to relent?
That's the problem with people like "Mancow", Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh. They think that they're intelligent, but they really know nothing.
Mancow's comment that he thought he'd just "laugh it off" is perfect proof. Hey, idiot! If it was just something you could laugh off, or not so bad, there would not be any debate over whether it's torture or not!
People who have done it, or had it done to them absolutely KNOW it's torture, and the continued claims that it's not either stem from utter denial, or complete stupidity.
Kewl, now get the Speaker of the House to tell the truth !!
For the historically challenged waterboarding apologists:
"World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[67] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[68] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[69][70][71] "
sources:
67: ^ Gorman, H. Candace (June 14, 2007). "Torture By Another Name". In These Times. http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3226/torture_by_another_name/. Retrieved on April 18, 2009.
68: ^ Delarue, Jacques (1964). The Gestapo: A History of Horror. New York City: William Morrow and Company. p. 234. OCLC 301833480.
69:# ^ Sidhu, H. (1991). The bamboo fortress: true Singapore war stories. Singapore: Native Publications. p. 113. ISBN 981-00-3101-7. OCLC 25961588.
70: # ^ Au, Waipang (September 1997). "Sime Road Camp". Yawning Bread. http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_1997/yax-057.htm. Retrieved on April 18, 2009.
71: # ^ "Victim of Japanese torture". July 31, 2007. http://library.thinkquest.org/C002071/webalbum/pages/torture1.htm. Retrieved on April 18, 2009. [unreliable source?]
Next: prosecution as war crime
From the Washington Post:
"The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding. "
Source: By Evan Wallach
Sunday, November 4, 2007; Page B01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
[...] dixonhamby 17 minutes ago Conservative radio show host gets waterboarded http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conserv... [...]
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight: nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety: is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better men than himself."
-John Stuart Mill
"Ticking timebomb, my ass. It's just another tool in the ridiculous rights "How to Instill Fear in the Dumbest of American's" playbook, and you assholes fall for it, hook, line, and sinker."
EXACTLY. Remember Tom Ridge's duct tape and plastic sheeting nonsense? How stupid was that? Seal yourself in and wait... good plan! When I heard that, I was like, "Wait just a minute, you're kidding, right? RIGHT?!" I knew then that all the 911 terrorist BS was just that. They REALLY overcooked it with that one. The sorry-ass thing was, Americans DID run out and buy out all the plastic sheeting and duct tape! Ridge must've owned stock in 3M or Home Depot.
As far as the waterboarding, Jesse Venture has the right idea. C'mon Cheney, let's see if it's torture or not. Heck, we can just waterboard you until you admit that it is! Wait, would that be legitimate? Oh yeah, I think it would, because if it wasn't torture, he would be able to withstand it! DUH!!
There might also be another addition to things worse than war as well. That being the fear of people so afraid our crimminal actions of torture might be resulting in our own punishment that we adhere to the policy of torure to protect themselves. It is as stupid as it is debasing. All those in favor of torture are of the ignorant masses whom you can find in the audience of the Pat Robertson hate crowd. All are traitors. All are cowards. None have the spine to live by the rule of law which the Constitution stands for. None have respect for the flag they say they love, but spit on with every fear based paranoid delusion they espouse.
Sgt G
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight: nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety: is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better men than himself."
-John Stuart Mill
No Sarge, war IS the ugliest of things, hands down, especially when it's dropping cluster bombs and white phosphorus on civilians.
Now that we have that out of the way, we can talk about righteous war. Like when your country is ATTACKED. You don't pick out a country who's leader you don't like, blame them for the attack, then destroy that country, ok?
Sarge, with all due respect, your argument is out of kilter. You are comparing war for profit to righteous war, i.e, war where you are FORCED to protect your country. Then, and ONLY then, can you quote John Stuart Mill.
The only righteous war we have ever fought is the Revolutionary War. It was a war which brought us the Constitution that all the adherants to torture insist we must shred to save their pussy asses which aren't really worth saving to start with.
What is it about the phrase "IT'S ILLEGAL" that just floats by the "conservative" mind and refuses to take hold there? Since when did being a "conservative" mean that you can do whatever the moment tells you you can? Look, torture of ANY Kind is ILLEGAL. YOUR savior, RONALD FREAKING REAGAN signed a treaty that declared it to be, regardless of variety or circumstance. It said nothing about "minor" varieties or any other kind other than to say that it is ALL illegal. That means, for those of you who are still to stupid to get this point, that it's NOT ALLOWED. FOR ANY reason, I don't care how afraid you are or what the circumstances. Read the treaty. It's VERY CLEAR.
Look, if you people are going to be hypocritical enough to not follow Christ's teachings, then perhaps you should at least follow the one that you keep on preaching about, Reagan, who said very clearly IN WRITING that it's NOT acceptable. PERIOD. NO justifications, NO excuses, NO reasons it's just NOT acceptable.
For decades, now, you people have been telling US that WE are the problem in this country because our values are so conditional, that we don't adhere to any actual values, that we are wishy washy and would sell out the country at the first moment of danger. You prove every time you open your mouths that you don't have the courage of your convictions as Americans, that you live in complete fear of people who you have never even met, and that your morals are FAR more conditional than ours EVER were.
Open up your eyes for just a moment, just a split second, and look at reality as it sits before you today. WHO is it that is calling for us to live up to our ideals as Americans? NOT YOU. Who is it that is demanding accountability under the LAWS of this country? NOT YOU. Who is it that is telling us that we are so fearful that everything we have ever stood for is out the window and now we must act like complete barbarians? YOU. Who is it that is listening to people whose whole goal is to make you so afraid that you will go along with anything at all, no matter how wrong, how immoral, or how suicidal just so you can be "safe"? YOU AGAIN.
You need to crawl out from under that bed, take the plastic and duct tape off your windows and go back outside. Smell the air, or what is left of it after the "clear skies" crap that W pulled on us. Look at the sun again. Stand up on your own two feet and get your heads out of your collective asses. This country USED to be fearless, now you whiny babies have declared that fear is what we must all live by. I for one refuse. I'm not afraid of third world countries that have never attacked us and clearly don't have the ability to do so. I refuse to live in fear of every other group of people on the planet because of what Limbaugh or Hannity say. I refuse. Get that? I REFUSE. And I suggest that you do the same. The world isn't out to get you. They want you to grow up and act like men and women, not babies. It's time that you start doing that very thing.
Allow me to relay to you all the happenings of a most delightful evening I experienced while in training for the service to my country. While enjoying, a less than deserved, nap one evening, after a typical 20 hour day of exercize; I was assisted from my bed by five well built young gentlemen and escorted to a room with a very firm concrete floor. Much of this is conjecture on my part, as they placed a bag over my head, in an effort to greatly increase the value of the surprise which they had planned. They did not seem particularly concerned about the manner in which they deposited my person upon said floor and it seems I remember taking an ever so slight bounce upon my landing. The landing was possibly enhanced by the particular manner in which they had bound my hands and feet during my transport to this room.Shortly after coming to rest on my back the bag was removed rather rapidly and replaced by what seemed to have been a piece of burlap cloth. I know it may sound quite amazing to most people reading this account, but this was the first time I came to realize that a relatively small scrap of cloth could actually hold almost 10 gallons of water. Well, I must also admit that not all the water was poured into it at once. The gentlemen doing so spread this task out over a period of at least 30 minutes, along with a few rest breaks while they tried to count my ribs while wearing heavy boots. I would suppose they had some regrets about getting my sleeping garments wet and putting me back to bed. So, after replacing the bag, they placed me into a well air conditioned room upon a tall stood, and there allow me to dry out for about an hour. This could have been made a bit less cumbersome had they taken time to remove my bounds and allow my to attain a slightly better position for balance.All in all, this was the more pleasant part of my experiences over the next two days. During which time I grew quite hungry, thirsty, and began to dought several aspects of my geneology. After such an experience I feel I am in a fairly unique position to speak on the issue at hand. WATER BOARDING IS NOT FUN for the receipient. I have come to the conclusion that most anything which one would not care to see done to their children could be interpreted as a form of torture.
Great post Cranford, but unfortunately I don't think you can fix cowardice, immorality, or inbreeding any more than you can fix stupid. All of those espousing torture appear to suffer from all of them. They are traitors to all we stood for so many years. They are the cowards which have infected our society to the point where we are already doomed. Not from an outside enemy, but by the rot of their collective fears and barbarism. I actually hope for a day when once again, the true citizens of this country will stand up again in armed revolt against these tyrants that espouse torture along with the entire debasement of the entire constitution out of their collective stupidity and cowardice. Who could feel bad if all these idiots actually were casualties of an uprising against tyranny? For tyrants are always cowards.
Wow. I actually respect him for trying it out, then more for having an open mind about it, and again for telling the truth afterwards (not that he could deny it and have people look at him seriously). So different from most so-called conservatives nowadays.
isn't it amazing that everyone from SEAR school says it's torture after having the full treatment of it done to them? While I too respect mancow for at least having the balls to go through with it, and admitting it is torture, he didn't go through the whole ordeal we subject others to. I bet I could have made Mancow admit he shot Lincoln in 5 minutes. That is the level of intelligence you get out of torture. Only the idiots don't get it. And that is only on the effective aspect of it. Morality has so little to do with the christian right who seem to be the main proponents. How did the teachings of Christ which seeme to promote love and tolerance and courage (hey, he knew he was going to get nailed. literally) get turned into the judgemental, ignorant, cowardly fucks of christianity? Always amazed me how these idiots have so obviously never read the words they claim were written by god himself. Wouldn't that be all they should be doing? after all, god wrote it. what a bunch of cowardly, inbred, traitors. All of those espousing torture are the true enemies of america.
Sorry, I meant SERE not SEAR
[...] Source: The Raw Story [...]
to eric: a point by point refutation
Hey Libs. If waterboarding is torture and torture is always wrong, why do you all want to use torture on conservatives like Hannity, Rush and Beck? Are conservatives worse than terrorists?
1. conservatives are, by large, the people who deny that waterboarding is torture.
mancow stepped up to the plate and changed his mind about it... "absolutely torture"... we need more people to understand that it is torture, mainly those who hold weight in the republican voice, aka beck, hannity, etc.
That is the problem with you people. Like Obama, you despise conservatives (fellow Americans) and feel compassion for those that would like to see this country nuked into the dark ages.
2. no, we do not despise you. you do not see obama passing laws in order to piss off conservatives. on the other hand, you guys are completely fine passing laws to not let gay people (FELLOW AMERICANS) get married, or even serve in the army to protect america. and you think we feel compassion for terrorists? i am sorry, not everyone in the middle-east is a terrorist; generalizing that everyone in iraq is in al qaeda is just ignorant. and if obama hates conservatives, why is his cabinet filled with dems, republicans, and independents?
It's all a big political football to you guys. You could care less about the safety of our soldiers, which has been compromised by this administrations reckless vendetta against the Bush administration. Maybe these torture allegations would be appropriate once our boys are out of danger, but they certainly aren't appropriate now.
3. political football eh? yes, as evil dems who seem to care about equality more than anything, we really don't give a crap about our own soldiers. this makes no sense. if compassion about soldiers is what you care about, you should be questioning bush for the iraq war. if i remember correctly, bush started the war, and kept ushering more and more troops in. obama has been in office for little over 100 days... yet the war is his fault? yes yes ok. that makes total sense. However, i do actually agree with you about the torture allegations, this may be bad timing for sure. but to honestly think that any nation does not torture (save canada and sweden) is just ignorant. people have been tortured in every war, why not now?
You people will be the downfall of this once great nation.
4. take a look at the presidential history for both dems and republicans, then try to make a more informed opinion.
to eric: a point by point refutation
Hey Libs. If waterboarding is torture and torture is always wrong, why do you all want to use torture on conservatives like Hannity, Rush and Beck? Are conservatives worse than terrorists?
1. conservatives are, by large, the people who deny that waterboarding is torture.
mancow stepped up to the plate and changed his mind about it... "absolutely torture"... we need more people to understand that it is torture, mainly those who hold weight in the republican voice, aka beck, hannity, etc.
That is the problem with you people. Like Obama, you despise conservatives (fellow Americans) and feel compassion for those that would like to see this country nuked into the dark ages.
2. no, we do not despise you. you do not see obama passing laws in order to piss off conservatives. on the other hand, you guys are completely fine passing laws to not let gay people (FELLOW AMERICANS) get married, or even serve in the army to protect america. and you think we feel compassion for terrorists? i am sorry, not everyone in the middle-east is a terrorist; generalizing that everyone in iraq is in al qaeda is just ignorant. and if obama hates conservatives, why is his cabinet filled with dems, republicans, and independents?
It's all a big political football to you guys. You could care less about the safety of our soldiers, which has been compromised by this administrations reckless vendetta against the Bush administration. Maybe these torture allegations would be appropriate once our boys are out of danger, but they certainly aren't appropriate now.
3. political football eh? yes, as evil dems who seem to care about equality more than anything, we really don't give a crap about our own soldiers. this makes no sense. if compassion about soldiers is what you care about, you should be questioning bush for the iraq war. if i remember correctly, bush started the war, and kept ushering more and more troops in. obama has been in office for little over 100 days... yet the war is his fault? yes yes ok. that makes total sense. However, i do actually agree with you about the torture allegations, this may be bad timing for sure. but to honestly think that any nation does not torture (save canada and sweden) is just ignorant. people have been tortured in every war, why not now?
You people will be the downfall of this once great nation.
4. take a look at the presidential history for both dems and republicans, then try to make a more informed opinion.
Thanks Jim, I did not say so, but I was attempting to point out the main difference between my experience and that of Mancow. I do give him cudos for his under going such treatment. What I would like to point out is the difference in someone being awake and aware of these circumstances as they unfold and being snatched up and done before you can even clear your head from the exhaustion from the previous day. There in lies the true test of just how a person will perceive the intentions of those people who might be inflicting said torturous deeds upon them. Let me also state that the initial and overwelming emotion which I remember experiencing was sheer PANIC. I believed I was in a safe and secure place when I lay down that night, but that feeling was rapidly replace by sheer terror and panic. I have since gained a firm insight into what I have heard stated many times before and since. "Whatever does not kill me, will only make me stronger."
Let me close by saying that this country has been through some very trying times in the last several years and we should keep these thoughts in our collective minds. As my grandfather one told me ,"if you want to shape metal you first put it into a forge, this also makes it stronger and it will last longer." Whoever is ultimately found to have been responsible for 9-11. They will get their just rewards either here or here after. This event should continue to serve as a "forge" through which we meld together as a nation, and remembering our commonalities, should press ahead. Continuing to be "one nation under GOD" and a country "of the people, by the people, and for the people."
This isn't a republican or a democratic or a conservative or a liberal problem.
We're *all* to blame as long as we sit and allow this stuff to continue. Our "leaders" are a direct reflection of the people. Who elects the lawmakers into office? We do.
And when they cease to do the right thing, when they run roughshod over every shred of decency America should have, when they refuse to stand up to the life-appointed bureaucrats and the "alphabet agencies" who run the show from behind the scenes, it is up to us to make changes.
Our silence and inaction is complicity. "We, the People" should be taking to the streets to protest these actions and more, and to demand accountability.
The world is watching the reactions of the American people over this, and so far they've seen no real reaction at all other than internet bickering. What does that say about us?
hey jim, you need to lay down and lick your hemmorhoids. Uh....they are coming over here. remember those big planes that hit those big towers in NYC? Idiot!
I read some stories that said Cheney was the one behind 911. If so Im guessing his buddy Rush knew about it. So lets keep waterboarding Rush till he admits it. He is an obvious coward and should not take more than 183 attempts to get the "truth" as some see it out of him. Maybe a cigar Catheter would speed up the process?
that picture is pathetic!!
That is NOT water boarding!!!!
Water boarding is the stretchers you see at Guantanamo Bay with just one axel and two wheels. This is so the stretchers can be tilted back so that the head of the VICTIM can be submerged into a pool of water. This is done until the VICTIM is drowning and they are then brought out of the water. SOmetimes of course they will drown.
Total cover-up of the truth!!!
Picture of the stretcher.
http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/guantanamo-cp-5050381.jpg
Cranford, you are welcome. however forging only works on steel. Like the will of those willing to stand by the rule of law. If one places aluminum, like the like of spine or morality represented by the cowards who advocate torture, then the metal merely melts. The danger is these morons will win out and we will continue our decline into their cowardly world. We will then become deserving of terror in our streets, though these cowards already see invisible bogeymen everywhere. Thank you again, Jim
Choirboy. you are as retarded an example of the aluminum mentioned above that is possible to find. There were no Iraqis in the planes. Iraq had nothing to do with it. Not one single fucking thing. The only justification for it was a false statement (proven false you fucktard) that was gotten out by torture. It was done through torture because real interrogation would have not only been humane, legal, and also effective. Also, real interrogation does not create terrorists, while your stupid ranting on the wonders of being a nazi and torturing everyone does create terrorists. you are the most disgusting piece of shit concievable and it is through cowards like you that our country is in any danger at all. you are scared of shadows in the night and so you shit upon every sacrifice any real person has ever made in defense of the document you shit upon with every keystroke. That would be the Constitution. You fucking moron. It will be because of cowards like you that the world will rise up and bomb us as we so deserve. We deserve it because cowards like you have invited it. you are a disgrace to every intelligent human being ever born. please do the world a favor and kill yourself immediately.
CHOIRBOY
The "choirboy" tag explains a lot in your case. You better get going and go after those priests that diddled you. The least you have is Stockholm syndome...
[...] May. 23rd, 2009 at 5:10 PM Chicago's conservative radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn't torture. Turns out, he was wrong.Source:http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/ [...]
Cranford, I think you will find that the most zealous apologists for torture in the USA are the people who agree with you that this country needs to be "under God".
As for myself, I want the USA to be the GOOD GUYS! I want to be the shining example for what a humane and compassionate people CAN be.
It's ironic that I, a military veteran and life-long atheist, am firmly against torture.
fag.
hypey Newz™ distracting dumbed-down Ameritardz while our flying robots slaughter children overseas.
this country is D-O-O-M-E-D
Now that he personally knows the experience of US torture, to give a fair comparison, he should try some other's. Maybe a mild caning or stoning? Say 25 lashes or stones?
Well, when you look at the sorry state our citiizenry has sunken to nowadays, torture advocates and the like, it is no wonder we are doomed. We are now officially a nation of murderous cowards who have not one shred of decency. We deserve to have terrorists come over and do all the nasty things the cowards all scream they are plotting to do, just because of all these cowards are actually doing. These cowards have done more damage to our country than any external enemy. Cowards torture. Cowards have nothing to live for anyway, so they have destroyed all that is worth fighting for in this country. These cowards who advocate torture have shit on the grave of everyone who died for this country. They don't have the spine needed to stand up to tyranny, and so have become the tyranny they rail against. They are, in short, too disgusting to live. I hope these torture advocates live long, piss-in-their-pants from their paranoid delusional fears, lives. Oh yes, a long life for cowards like this, who are scared of imaginary bogey men, who are so ignorant they still believe Iraq did 9/11, who are so afraid of the dark they willingly shred the constitution, all of these people could be best served by letting them live very long lives in the filth of their cowardly disease.
A quick note to Sherry: I am not attempting to preach to you or anyone else, but, I would ask for all who will to read the true teachings of Jesus in the fifth chapter of the Book of Mathew. As you read this I ask you to please not equate anything mentioned with being weak either in mind or in spirit. I do not intend for anyone who does not believe in a God to change their minds. I just want those who do read these words to stop and realize just what is being said.
I have always believed that the Ten Commandments were and are the greatest civilizing force for mankind. But, they are meant as laws by which all men should live as a society. The verses to which I refer are called "the beatitudes" and should be the way men live in our personal dealings with one another. I am confident that if we would all adopt such lives, the rest of the would "fall in line".
Now, before someone starts crying about this showing us as being weak, please listen very closely! I firmly in the "rule of law" and these laws should be allowed to be enforced. Those involve in an attack upon this country should be hunted down, CRUSHED under the heel of the most greatest super power on planet earth, and left on the trash heap of history.
[...] The Raw Story � Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying it... [...]
Haha what a wussbag that Mancow was.. but at least he was honest.. look, these neo-cons are all little chickens at heart. I was telling a former Army guy at work about how the New York Times reported on the Boy Scouts now being trained on how to deal with Vets (deemed violent extreeists by the DHS) and he cried to HR.
911 was an inside job. Wake the F up America!
[...] Rawstory May 23, 2009 [...]
SFJoe, I agree with you on the 9/11, but on this site we are having to deal with an army of imbeciles who believe Iraq did 9/11, torture is good, and that the terrorists are lurking behind every tree. To get these retards to wrap their mind around 9/11 is asking a bit much, especially since basic morality is far too much for them to understand. Hell, even the concept of having a spine is a foreign language to these sheeple. It is so goddamn pathetic as to how low America has sunk with retards like this around.
When Do the Prosecutions of all those that took part in Torture Begin?
Torture is a Federal Crime...a Felony, a Capital Crime, Look it up.
Unless Obama advocates a two tier system of Justice in America he will prosecute Bush, Cheney and their Appointee Lawyers. One tier is for the politicians where they can break laws and be protected by their successors, Obama and His Appointee Lawyers. And another tier where the common voter gets prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
SIGN THE PETITION calling for the Prosecution of All Who Conspired to Torture
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
over 250,000 have signed
Join us and call yourself a Patriot
johnkennedy, I already had signed it. I also accuse obama of complicity by obstructing the investigation. That makes him an accessory. He also stands by rendition, which is the same thing as advocating torture, with the additional crime of kidnapping attached to it. Anyone who does not actively seek investigation into the war crimes of these administrations is committing treason. That is the law when it falls under their jurisdiction and they have knowledge of the crime taking place. Obama is just as guilty, even if for the reason he hasn't called for the investigation. In fact, all those calling for us to "look forward" are just as guilty. If I rob a bank, you can bet your ass the cops won't look forward and just let me get away with it. Why should bush and cheney and rumsfeld, and woo, and all those involved be any different from us? In fact, in a free society, those in public service would be held accountable to a HIGHER standard. However, we do live in a police state now. I guess that's why there is no investigation. Because we are nazi pigs.
Now if they'll just stand him up against a wall so he can determine whether being shot by six men is really capital punishment.
He lasted about as half as long as his orgasm with Rush Limpnut
Everyone detained that got waterboarded walked away...
The captives that the terrorists detained lost their heads!
to the fucktard traitorous coward edster, how far did the over 1 million iraqis we murdered in an illegal war walk? And yes, the war is illegal. There has been no justification for our invasion. At least none beyond the false testimony gained under torture (torture doesn't provide good intel, only one of the reasons it is outlawed, but you are way to degenerate to understand morality or courage). That evidence, used to invade the country was wrong. The war is illegal under our law and under international law. Therefore all caualties on their side are to be considered victims of a crime. As in a murder crime. That leave you promoting the murder of over one million innocents. And as you fucktards like to always scream, many of them are children, just what is the message you send to children? Die, because we are pussies and afraid of the dark. you are so fucking retarded.
edster
Everyone that got their heads whacked worked for Blackwater or other no-bid contractors that treated the Iraqi people like shit--not counting our soldiers that have to steal water at gunpoint and/or take showers with a chance of getting electrocuted......If that water boarding worked so well, why didn't they get info from Hussein as to where he HID the WMD's---but instead they HUNG HIM.....why don't you try waterboarding yourself by sticking your head in a toilet and flushing....
Christopher Hitchens did the same thing (submitted himself to waterboarding) :
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808
His conclusion? The article entitled "Believe Me, It's Torture."
If you guys believe this then I have some beach front property in Montana! I will give you a great deal!
Believe what? that waterboarding is torture? Let me ask every single soldier that went through SERE training first. What? you say it damn sure is? Really? Oh, and that for an avg person, in REAK waterboarding it is 14 secs. But neocons being traditionally of the cowardly ilk, and yuppies to boot, 6 secs must be the record. It is illegal. It is immoral. It is ineffective. It is for police states. It is for cowards. It is for neocons. It is for traitors.
Every single one of you liberal idiots would be singing a way different tune if one of your family members had their head sawed off by one of the many savages that you all want to have a fucking tea party with instead of taking proper measures to hunt them down.
I'm sure the men / women being held captive by the terrorist savages would love to be water boarded. Unfortunately they're subject to far worse techniques like having car batteries wired to their chest, appendages cut off, chemicals being poured into open woulds and eyes and lets not forget the countless beheadings fresh with highly publicized videos so little tommy and sally can check out the action as well.
What will it takes for you people to understand that America is hated and there are many individuals, extremist organizations, and countries out there that won't hesitate to bring us down if given the chance.
To DAve; first of all you are an idiot. they wouldn't torture any of us if we weren't over there. We are waging illegal wars over there. they didn't do anything to us. we just invaded them. on proven false testimoney gathered from torture. yes, we went to war based on wrong evidence based on torture. and torture is illegal. it is immoral. it is for cowardly traitors. it is for neo-cons who seem to believe that jesus is for torture. we have killed millions of iraqi patriots who are resisting the evil nazi american empire we have become under the torture the soon to be enemy regime of bush the war criminal. torture only creates enemies. it is done only by police states. it has never been used to get information, only to get people to submit propoganda. there is a difference. oh yeah, it is also used to intimidate a population. personally, i don't thinkyou have a single argument (other than the paranoid delusions of some fantasy scenoario you nut jobs always dream up( that justifies the absolute defamation of the constitution and all the sacrifices made by it's troops that torture just destroys in a single shot. you have done more to destroy this country from within, by your cowardice, by your absolute barbarism, than any external enemy ever could have dreamed of doing. I served for ten years. Airfuckingborne. Just because and desert storm. I have bled, killed, and had my comrades die for the constitution you defame. I am against torture. Until bush, our country had laws against it. the geneva convention was against it. the founding fathers were against it. Jesus certainly would have been against it (though most of you fucking nut job neo-cons profess to be christians. more like anti-christians if you ask me. fuck that god if he approves torture. that is a sick fucking religious strain of christianity). Torture is for cowards. It is illegal. it doesn't work. it is immoral. it is for neocons. it is for traitors. I consider you an enemy of the constitution and I took the oath three times to protect the constituion from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. You are a domestic enemy of the constitution of hte united states of america. A country that was once great until the barbarians who practiced torture out of fear took over. Then it became a scumbag land of nazi asswipes. Thanks for doing your part in destroying a great nation. you should be proud of that you fucking fuck.
I have actually drowned before and the sensation is purely mental. Lack of oxygen actually gives you an euphoric sensation. The "Freak Out" that happens when you drown can be controlled. It is simply a fear of dying and or lack of control over your immediate future. In the end you are still alive and there is no perminant physical damage. On the other hand, having your fingers broken and eyes burned out will bring pain, freak outs and perminant damage. So what is torture really. In my opinion it is perminant physical damage.
you are an idiot. I guess all the seals, and other special forces that say it is torture that have to go through this (in a lot less ideal settings than mancow did) are just pussies. Everyone who goes through SERE school says it's torture. They say it because they've been through it. They aren't pussies, and most aren't really afraid of dying. They are also probably a hell of a lot better at controlling their fears than you are. And yet, they all say it is torture. Gee, who would I believe. Some fuckhead comparing degrees of inhumanity. Or actual people who have undergone the torture? Let me see? Oh yes, I think I'll go with our troops on this one. Support the troops and call it fucking torture. What? you don't support the troops? You must be a fucking terrorist! Suspend your habeus corpus, waterboard your ass until you confess to whatever we want, and then we'll waterboard you some more. It is torture. We executed people for commiting this specific form of torture in WW2. It is immoral. It is illegal. It is for cowards. It is for police states. It is for neo-cons. It is for traitors.
Mancow evidently entered this endeavor in an attempt to prove everyone wrong that claimed WB is torture. He came out of the experience with no doubt in his mind that WB IS torture. He manfully admitted his changed opinion. Regardless of how long he was able to endure it - at least he actually has the experience to comment upon it. Which is a lot more than most of the rest of us can claim.
That wasn't water boarding. That was a stunt. You don't get water boarded by your friends.
Jim Lunsford, you seem to have a thing for calling random people you don't know idiots. Do you have some sort self esteem issue with your mental capabilities that you have to put down complete strangers by calling them idiots in every post?
You respond to people with the most generalized posts saying that islamic extremists never did anything to our country. Apparently you've been living under a rock. Do you know how many terrorist threats there are on a WEEKLY basis? No, you don't. You're an ordinary nobody who is kept in the dark to avoid uninformed outbursts like this whole water boarding situation.
The American public is too deluded to be informed about any happenings that go on in the inner workings of the US intelligence. You're kind is too obsessed with the ideas of Hollywood pussies that you can't think freely. It's disturbing really. This country is doomed, have fun.
Scott #349 says: "I have actually drowned before and the sensation is purely mental. Lack of oxygen actually gives you an euphoric sensation. The "Freak Out" that happens when you drown can be controlled. "
I could swim the length of an Olympic-sized swimming pool underwater without coming up for air (with or without rocket fins). I've experienced drowning firsthand, and let me tell YOU... it is NOT pleasantly euphoric. Perhaps when you can swim the length of an Olympic-sized swimming pool underwater without coming up for air, I will listen to your pontifications of drowning as being purely mental and how the "freak out" can be controlled.
I say, and the law says, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal.
Jesse Ventura was a Navy SEAL and he says waterboarding is torture. I concur.
OPINION MAY 19, 2009 - WSJ
Critics Still Haven't Read the 'Torture' Memos
The CIA proposed the methods. The Justice Department gave its advice.
By VICTORIA TOENSING
Sen. Patrick Leahy wants an independent commission to investigate them. Rep. John Conyers wants the Obama Justice Department to prosecute them. Liberal lawyers want to disbar them, and the media maligns them.
What did the Justice Department attorneys at George W. Bush's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) -- John Yoo and Jay Bybee -- do to garner such scorn? They analyzed a 1994 criminal statute prohibiting torture when the CIA asked for legal guidance on interrogation techniques for a high-level al Qaeda detainee (Abu Zubaydah).
In the mid-1980s, when I supervised the legality of apprehending terrorists to stand trial, I relied on a decades-old Supreme Court standard: Our capture and treatment could not "shock the conscience" of the court. The OLC lawyers, however, were not asked what treatment was legal to preserve a prosecution. They were asked what treatment was legal for a detainee who they were told had knowledge of future attacks on Americans.
The 1994 law was passed pursuant to an international treaty, the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment. The law's definition of torture is circular. Torture under that law means "severe physical or mental pain or suffering," which in turn means "prolonged mental harm," which must be caused by one of four prohibited acts. The only relevant one to the CIA inquiry was threatening or inflicting "severe physical pain or suffering." What is "prolonged mental suffering"? The term appears nowhere else in the U.S. Code.
Congress required, in order for there to be a violation of the law, that an interrogator specifically intend that the detainee suffer prolonged physical or mental suffering as a result of the prohibited conduct. Just knowing a person could be injured from the interrogation method is not a violation under Supreme Court rulings interpreting "specific intent" in other criminal statutes.
In the summer of 2002, the CIA outlined 10 interrogation methods that would be used only on Abu Zubaydah, who it told the lawyers was "one of the highest ranking members of" al Qaeda, serving as "Usama Bin Laden's senior lieutenant." According to the CIA, Zubaydah had "been involved in every major" al Qaeda terrorist operation including 9/11, and was "planning future terrorist attacks" against U.S. interests.
Most importantly, the lawyers were told that Zubaydah -- who was well-versed in American interrogation techniques, having written al Qaeda's manual on the subject -- "displays no signs of willingness" to provide information and "has come to expect that no physical harm will be done to him." When the usual interrogation methods were used, he had maintained his "unabated desire to kill Americans and Jews."
The CIA and Department of Justice lawyers had two options: continue questioning Zubaydah by a process that had not worked or escalate the interrogation techniques in compliance with U.S. law. They chose the latter.
The Justice Department lawyers wrote two opinions totaling 54 pages. One went to White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, the other to the CIA general counsel.
Both memos noted that the legislative history of the 1994 torture statute was "scant." Neither house of Congress had hearings, debates or amendments, or provided clarification about terms such as "severe" or "prolonged mental harm." There is no record of Rep. Jerrold Nadler -- who now calls for impeachment and a criminal investigation of the lawyers -- trying to make any act (e.g., waterboarding) illegal, or attempting to lessen the specific intent standard.
The Gonzales memo analyzed "torture" under American and international law. It noted that our courts, under a civil statute, have interpreted "severe" physical or mental pain or suffering to require extreme acts: The person had to be shot, beaten or raped, threatened with death or removal of extremities, or denied medical care. One federal court distinguished between torture and acts that were "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment." So have international courts. The European Court of Human Rights in the case of Ireland v. United Kingdom (1978) specifically found that wall standing (to produce muscle fatigue), hooding, and sleep and food deprivation were not torture.
The U.N. treaty defined torture as "severe pain and suffering." The Justice Department witness for the Senate treaty hearings testified that "[t]orture is understood to be barbaric cruelty . . . the mere mention of which sends chills down one's spine." He gave examples of "the needle under the fingernail, the application of electrical shock to the genital area, the piercing of eyeballs. . . ." Mental torture was an act "designed to damage and destroy the human personality."
The treaty had a specific provision stating that nothing, not even war, justifies torture. Congress removed that provision when drafting the 1994 law against torture, thereby permitting someone accused of violating the statute to invoke the long-established defense of necessity.
The memo to the CIA discussed 10 requested interrogation techniques and how each should be limited so as not to violate the statute. The lawyers warned that no procedure could be used that "interferes with the proper healing of Zubaydah's wound," which he incurred during capture. They observed that all the techniques, including waterboarding, were used on our military trainees, and that the CIA had conducted an "extensive inquiry" with experts and psychologists.
But now, safe in ivory towers eight years removed from 9/11, critics demand criminalization of the techniques and the prosecution or disbarment of the lawyers who advised the CIA. Contrary to columnist Frank Rich's uninformed accusation in the New York Times that the lawyers "proposed using" the techniques, they did no such thing. They were asked to provide legal guidance on whether the CIA's proposed methods violated the law.
Then there is Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, who declared that "waterboarding will almost certainly be deemed illegal if put under judicial scrutiny," depending on which "of several possibly applicable legal standards" apply. Does he know the Senate rejected a bill in 2006 to make waterboarding illegal? That fact alone negates criminalization of the act. So quick to condemn, Mr. Robinson later replied to a TV interview question that he did not know how long sleep deprivation could go before it was "immoral." It is "a nuance," he said.
Yet the CIA asked those OLC lawyers to figure out exactly where that nuance stopped in the context of preventing another attack. There should be a rule that all persons proposing investigation, prosecution or disbarment must read the two memos and all underlying documents and then draft a dissenting analysis.
Ms. Toensing was chief counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee and deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration.
Do conservative columnists even believe what they write?
May 14, 2009 3:03 pm ET by Eric Boehlert
Or is it more propaganda on behalf of the movement? A couple recent cases provide further proof that it's likely the latter.
First, as Media Matters noted, when the Philadelphia Inquirer's new favorite new columnist, John Yoo, wrote a column for the Wall Street Journal in 2004, he:
made assertions that were later revealed to be highly misleading or at odds with legal memos he had written during the Bush administration as a deputy assistant attorney general in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel.
In other words, spinning in the Journal, Yoo made statements about interrogation techniques; statements that were at odds with legal memos that he wrote as part of the Bush administration.
Which raises an interesting question: Did the Journal editors know Yoo was writing one thing in public about interrogation and pretty much counseling the opposite in public? Or perhaps more importantly, do the editors at the right-wing Journal even care that they paid writers to apparently purposefully mislead Journal readers? I have my doubts that Journal editors even care, mostly because they seem to see their job as advancing GOP talking points, and not necessarily engaging in authentic opinion journalism.
For the second case of conservative columnist purposefully playing dumb, let's turn to the Washington Post's Charles Krauthammer. Think Progress has the details [emphasis added]:
On May 1, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer conceded in a column that waterboarding is torture. Krauthammer argued that torture is justifiable “under two circumstances” and that in those cases “you do what you have to do. And that includes waterboarding.” But in an interview on Dennis Miller’s radio show today, Krauthammer said that he didn’t mean it when he wrote that waterboarding is torture:
Here's an idea. Why don't conservative pundits actually write what they mean. Or is that just considered to be an outdated approach to public debate?
To Dave who wrote on 353. I am specifically calling you a fucking treasonous coward. Would you like some specifics of what we have known? Probably not, but you are going to get some real facts.
1 - Iraq did not have anything to do with 9/11. The justification the war criminal (indicted for this in internation court and also accused of it by majority of US citizens who are outraged against his cowardly attacks upon freedoms external and internal) obtained a "confession" later proved false through the use of torture in order to start the war in Iraq. In other words, the torture you support to protect you from the imaginary bogeyman gave us the real danger of repurcussions by those we have murdered, tortured, and raped in other countries that did nothing to us.
2- Last week it took the FBI over a year to arrest four mostly retarded "terrorists" whom they supplied play-do instead of C4, the means, the plans, and the ability to bomb synagogues. These crack heads were basically hand held into the carrying out of their attacks. If they had a real threat, would they have used such a pathetic group as this for publicity?
3 - Just last year a similar case in miami. In this one, they were still functionally retarded. We guided them, etc. etc. the fucking same.
4 - The patriot act has been used for everything but real terror threats. It was first used to bust pot deatlers. A drug that is only illegal because it threatens the pharmaceutical, oil, and timber industries. An herb which has never ever killed anyone, but whom we have imprisoned over 20 million americans for using. Pharma drugs however, kill over 50k and their use apparantly is endorsed by Rush Limbaugh, the neo-con spokesperson. A hypocrite whose first act upon being busted for oxy-cotin abuse was to call the ACLU. The organization all you stupid ne0-cons call communist liberals. So, is rush sympathysing with the enemy? I think so Actually, I think rush is the enemy.
5 - Real interogators who actually are interested in factual data that is useful do not endorse torture. In fact, they hate it's use and are fighting it in congress right now. Torture, besides being the tool of cowardly thugs from police states (which we have become a slimy member of since Bush and you have supported this heinous move back into barbarism. doesn't even fucking work you idiot. This from the real experts.
6 - Now, to be non-partisan about the whole thing, let's take a trip back into history's memory lane.
Waco - the church who was acccused (without evidence at all) they were molesting children. Clinton then attacked this group and burned all the children alive. Well, think of the children. At least they weren't being molested.
7 - Oh yes, speaking of sexual molestation of children, Yoo the genius of the neo-cons called for just such acts in front of their parents in order to save pussies like you.
8 - Everytime the government says national security, they really mean covering evidence. Such as: covering up all the evidence at the pentagon on 9/11 without doing a proper crime scene investigation. Why? A majority of Americans believe the us government was behind that tragedy. Why? because there is a mountain of evidence these idiots couldn't hide that point that direction.
9- Anytime a politician say "Think of the children" you can bet they are of the same ilk as Sen. Foley. The asshole homosexual pedophile who got away with it all because of our government refuses to hold itself to a higher standard. Did I mention? He was a republican who also was the mastermind behind the child protection legalislation. Gee, all the rightwing screamers about gay rights always turn out to be closet flamers. A connection.
10 - there are so many actual atrocities commited openly about this government, it would take volumes of books (those things you don't read) in order to cover them all. Documented and proven atrocities. In a court of law type shit. Our founding fathers felt our government should fear it's citizens. You neo-con cowards believe the opposite.
11- Answer these questions now. Why do neo-cons hate the constitution? They have done nothing but support shredding it and all it stands for. That would be liberty, justice for all, and shit like that. Why are you agtainst the principles that our soldiers (of which I have been one upon the fields of battle) have fought andt bled and died to preserve? Why don't you support the troops? They are against torture because it obviously enflames the enemy and makes them fight harder (another uncomfortable fact for you retarded traitor neo-cons). You don't support the troops when you support torture. This makes you, under the patriot and military commissions act , a terrorist and your habeus corpus is suspended. You will also be tortured until they are tired of it. This is what you fight for, a torture loving, police state. These are not the idle accusations of a no-nothing citizen. These are the allegations of patriots in our own government. These are the allegations of international law,. These are the allegations of far more informed people than either you or I. I submit, you are still a retarded fucking traitor and that stupid fucking cowards like you all have one thing in common. None of you have the balls to actually fight for rights on battle. oops, one more. You are a traitor for all your support has done to destroy this once great nation and turn it into a pig sty of cowards who are not worthy of the constitution they hate. A people who profess a love for Jesus, but blasphame everything he stood for by their hatred, their cowardice, their blind support of war criminals. All in the name of fear. Your only attribute. You are pathetic.
It's unfortunate that it takes a stunt by a clown like Mancow to provoke a real conversation about waterboarding.
Geo, what is really sad is that we have waterboarding at all. It's torture. Torture is done by police states. That it is being so vehemently defended by so many of these deluded paranoid cowards says more about our decline than anything else. The very fact that we torture makes us an evil empire. These criminals will face justice. Either in the courts or in the streets. They have not only bankrupted our morals, they have bankrupted our financial system. They have hog-tied any method of recovering as well. This thanks to Bush the nazi war criminal. Obama is merely expediting all of his atrocities, so soon he will be held accountable as well. Our nation lost it's way and now supports tyranny at all costs. I took an oath to defend the Constitution they desecrate, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Our day will come soon when we will face these cowards in combat. A field that they have avoided for themselves personally their whole life, while endorsing the brave to sacrifice themselves. I didn't die there, but if it comes to gunfire, the neo-con cowards I will fight will suffer many casualties from my gun. Unlike our former enemies, I will actually feel good about killing these torture endorsing cowards. Real fucking good.
Dave of 353. I'm waiting for your answer as to why you don't support the troops. They don't want torture as they know it only enflames the enemy. Also, would you please do the world a favor and actually learn some facts before opening your mouth. We would like the dumbing down of America to remain a secret. National Security and all that. Please educate yourself on you're country's history. It is the duty of every American citizen to remain informd. And this is far beyond listening to dumbasses like Rush, hannity, or just Fox in general. Try historical books. I know, they have big words. Try congressional bills. Oops. big words again. Well, since those are off limits to the small IQs associated with the cowardly fucking pro-torture crowd, how about just shutting the fuck up, since you obviously don't know shit about what you are talking about.
All right wing talk show host should be waterboarded,because they are all mouth and no guts
uh... madcow did at least try and walk his talk. true, it was a yuppie version of wb. But, after only six seconds he admited it was torture and that he would have confessed to anything to make it stop. The real waterboarding is far too horrific for the pussies who promote it to do. The pro=torture crowd has historically been composed solely of cowards. Just like in ww2 with the nazis. Only cowardly scum promote torture. Perhaps that's why the catholic church loved it so much in the dark ages. Ah, the good old days of christian values!
Hey Dave: Your strawman is BURNING. Fucking coward.
Yes Dave, please enlighten us on why Jesus is for torture? And why do you hate the constitution? Why don't you support the troops? After all, they are against torture. Are you a terrorist? Since you don't support the troops, you must be one! Waterboard the terrorist now!
Author: edster
Comment:
Everyone detained that got waterboarded walked away...
The captives that the terrorists detained lost their heads!
-----
Step away from the crackpipe, nitwit. We only know of three that were waterboarded, and they're still in captivity. However, I'm willing to bet that Chimpy McFlightsuit, Dickhead Cheney, and the rest of the cabal of criminals authorized the waterboarding of far more than three individuals.
The only people who walked away were those who shouldn't have been picked up in the first place.
Can I please waterboard you? Please? Maybe the lack of oxygen to your last remaining braincell will render you fully brain dead, as opposed to partially brain dead.
Nikolai
"EXACTLY. Remember Tom Ridge's duct tape and plastic sheeting nonsense? How stupid was that? Seal yourself in and wait... good plan! When I heard that, I was like, "Wait just a minute, you're kidding, right? RIGHT?!"
I remember it well and laughed my ass off at the ridiculousness of it. We had a guy in upstate Connecticut that, literally, covered his entire house in plastic sheeting and duct tape - needless to say, I laughed over that one for DAYS!
It's amazing that people like that actually tend to function in everyday life, relatively unscathed ...
Hey, here's a torture argument for neo-con nazi cowards.
What would you do if a terrorist dropped white phosphorus on your village and it burned your little girl to death in a most horrible manner? In fact, it burned everyone you ever knew to death in the same fashion. Wouldn't you want to chop off that fucking assholes head?
Sure are a lot of "peace & love" liberals showing their true colors here.
"Can I please waterboard you?"
"Waterboard the terrorist now!"
"All right wing talk show host should be waterboarded"
You are pathetic and an all-too-honest representation of the crap that is how our "leaders" really exist.
read my comments traitor. I'm for the constitution you wipe your ass with every time you shit your pants in fear of non-existent bogey-men. Even in combat, when I shit my pants, I never lost my sight picture. But I didn't hide my fear behind cowardly actions that are treasonous to all our nation stood for before the neo--con's torture for jesus bullshit. C'mon, give us a real life scenario that justifies shredding every decent thing we used to stand for?? You neo-cons are only conservative in freedoms and courage. I have had bullets fly around me in war and on the streets and still fear no man. I ceratinly wouldn't sacrifice the constitution I swore an oath to protect three times in fear of some ridiculously paranoid delusional and cowardly scenario. That would be the neo-con coward nazis. Your torture techniques only get false info, defame our honor, and are only done by cowardly little thugs. Like the little gestapho agents you are, you would shit your pants if you had to face real danger. Hell, you already shit your pants on the delusions in your head. You know, the fantasies you imagine. They aren't real, but your torture techniques are breeding them. You neo-cons will go the same way the nazi torturers did at nuremburg. Either to the gallows or to the republican party with nixon. Since he's in hell now, guess that's where you torture for jesus freaks are going as well. fuck you traitors. torture is for traitors.
[...] Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture [...]
[...] http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/ [...]
Jim, First off I didn't even read 90% of your post because it's the same regurgiated shit you've been spouting off about all along. How many times are you going to use the word "neo-con" WE GET IT you love the word. Also, why did you bring up Jesus, Marijuana, or the war in Iraq? I don't fucking get it? When did I ever mention science fiction Jesus, Pot or the War in Iraq? The only thing I ever said was that torturing terrorists to gain specific intelligence is a MUST.
Instead of randomly rambling on about bullshit I never even said you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills. The facts are you don't know me or know what organizations I belong to. However we seem to know a lot about you. For one I know you're a pathological liar who constantly brings up things like SERE training or should I say "SEAR" training as you wrote it. Tell us Jim who are you really? Some overweight nerd trying to express himself via an online medium because you can't bring yourself to do it in real life? Grow up little boy.
First of all Dave, maybe you should read up on your recent history. We are in Iraq, because we got info that was later proved false. This info was gathered through the use of your favorite interrogation method: Torture. This info then led us into the iraqi war. This war has now led us to the now real possiblity of real terrorism in this country. That is step one. Step two. I hate neo-cons because it is the neo-cons who changed the fucking law that moved torture from illegal all over the world. To only illegal outside the us of fucking a. In other words, I hate neo-cons because they just love all the fascist bullshit that typical nazis like. Like tyranny, lying, cowardice, treason, and your personal favorite: torture.
Also, you stinking pile of dog shit, torture (as evidenced above) does not provide useable, reliable data. it is only used by police states. A state that you so lovingly embrace. Real and professional interrogators are presently fighting torture (even in Congress) as it undermines their ability to actually get real information. They use their abilities to outsmart their prisoner. Not merely torture him through thuggish methods. Fuck you, you fucking fuck. Torture is illegal. Torture is immoral. Torture doesn't work. Torture is for cowards. Torture is for neo-cons. Torture is for you.
How mad are you right now? Also what is it with you that you insist on constantly throwing these awful and unclever insults out on somebody over the internet. Are you bipolar or something?
I hate traitors. Can you answer the fucking questions yet? Did you get why Iraq is mentioned by me? Do we have to start at the beginning of fucking time with your ignorant ass to have a foundation of understanding as to the topic at hand? Go fuck yourself. I hate you fucks that endorse torture. Fuck you. You fucks and your knd are the only threat this nation faces. All because you are pro=torture and anti-morality. Fuck you torture for jesus neo-con freaks.
You have some SERIOUS issues. The whole "tough guy" routine doesn't really work well over the internet. It just makes you look like a gigantic pussy. Tell me, would you act like this to my face? If so I go to BU Law. We should arrange a meeting.
Oh also, how old are you? You give off the impression that you're ancient and senile.
And dave, since the neo-cons are the ones that instituted torture into the law, and their mantra is to accept jesus christ as their personal savior. how do you come to the conclusion that jesus is for torture? Also, since no veteran supports the torture (none have spoken up for it if they do anyway), why don't you support their decision? They know it only encites the enemy. You retards can't figure out basic decensy, so logic is obviously light years ahead of you. So let's hear your argument on why Jesus would torture the muslims. After all, he would have been an authority. Had he actually existed, that is.
48, ten years real service. mla history w/minor in law. Cocnstituionalist by politics. Only support wars of defense, as per constitution and morality. Do not support wars of unwarranted aggression as the war in iraq is. Do not support torture, for many reasons. Morality, practicality, effectiveness, etc. Cannot stand knowing that these torture policies have wrecked our standing throughout the world even more than the economic treason done to our country by bush and both parties in congress. i.e. legislated outsourcing to ensure no domestic manufacuring ability. sued states to overturn usury laws to protect citizens. destoryed entire economic infrastructure to ensure total collapse of country. We are fucked, but we don't have to keep proving how stupidly barbaric we are by torturing patriots who are only defending their borders from our evil nazi empire. We deserve our heads chopped off, because we are the bad guys here. Even the most cursory examination of our legislation would validat that point. Learn to read. A good citizen is a vigilent one. And good patriots never trust their own government. Don't believe me? Ask our founding fathers. They wrote the constitution you despise with every cheer for torture. I curse, you blasphame with torture. Which is the most barbaric?
SENILE
Sheila, Sheila, Sheila. You have a grasp of our history, but perhaps you "inadvertently" looked over the fact that we convicted, and executed, Japanese soldiers after WWII for torturing, including waterboarding, our troops.
You also "inadvertently" leave out that yes, while we are a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, and Al Qaeda is not, we are still BOUND by the Geneva Conventions. There isn't any provision contained in the Conventions that states "you're only bound by this document if BOTH sides are signatories." And, this applies to ALL international laws that we are BOUND BY.
Another thing you "inadvertently" omitted is that Ronald Reagan, the conservative "god", signed the Convention Against Torture, which explicitly states that we WILL NOT torture, under ANY circumstances.
Oh, this is priceless - "Please oh please, Mr. Terrorist, pretty please, tell us when and where your next attack is planned."
NO ONE has stated that terrorists are to be coddled, but there are LAWS WE ARE BOUND TO. Therefore, take your punk-ass repuglicunt talking point and shove it FIRMLY up your ASS.
oh yes dave. since you pro-torture types always come up with the crazy fucking scenarios in which you can somehow twist it to justify torture, how about looking at my real life scenario in comment 367? it's ony 3 lines long and is a question that comes up every day in Afghanistan (who also didn't attack us, but they do have the opium fields we encouraged growing after the taliban shut them down (3 days after they did shut them down we invaded afghanistan). Also, Iraqi citizens have to ask this question of themselves as well. I wonder what country we will be invading next? Maybe antartica, I heard the penguins were in with Al Quada. Answer that REAL life question. What would you do? And by the way, we have illegally invaded both countries. Just so you know.
gee veronica, watch out or you will be lumped in the vulgar crowd with me. Remember appearances are more important than substance with this crowd. lol Don't you find it an amazing coincidence that the most pro-torture advocates are also the least informed citizens? Hmmm..... coincidence?
One more thing, Sheila - Perhaps you should ask those who do the ACTUAL INTERROGATING if torture works ... it DOESN'T, as evidenced by the congressional testimony of FBI Special Agent Ali Soufan. He interrogated Abu Zubaydah himself and gleened more information from him BEFORE he was tortured; what did he reveal AFTER he was tortured - DICK, ZIP, NADA, NOT-A-FUCKING-THING. And, if you used the googles on the internet tubes, you'll find a whole HOST of other intelligence experts that explicitly state TORTURE DOES NOT WORK.
So that's another bullshit talking point you can shove up your ass - I'm sure you've got the room for it.
Jim, you must be a blast to hang out with.
always invited to parties. Of course, I only hang out with educated people. Not necesarily school educated, just aware. I am true to my friends, don't backstab them, am loyal to those women I date, don't hit them. Only ask they not be cruel and vicious or petty people. Those are not welcome around me.
For the historically challenged waterboarding apologists:
"World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[67] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[68] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[69][70][71] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II
note: more extensive sources can be found by going to the wikipedia article and following the appropriate links.
I am resubmitting this excerpt because my previous attempt says "awaiting moderation." (on my screen at least)
Now you know it was only bad for them to do it because Jesus didn't love nazis and japs. Jesus does love neo-cons and hates muslims. That's why it is okay. Somehow, I think that this is the core thought process of these thugs who propose torture. Not only are they too lazy to take the personal responsibility to stay informed, which is key to good citizenship, they are far too lazy to educate themselves to start with. While they are a deliberate product of the dumbing down of America (The Reece Commission, or was it the Meece commission) verifies this actual agenda, there is still no excuse for failing to take the personal initiative to educate yourself outside of the school system. Though I worked full time (40-60 hrs a week) during high school, I still had time to continue my education via reading. Today, with the vast resources of the internet, it is possible to self-educate yourself far beyond the traditional boundaries of the old university system. However, it still takes the personal initiative and the sense of responsiblity to do so. Therein lies the crux. It is amazing how every pro=torture advocate fails to demonstrate this personal initiative and personal responsibility. In fact, one would think the core values of the "old" conservative values would have encouraged said responsibilities, but instead it has only formed ignorance and dis-trust of educating oneself. To question is to learn. To question your government is to survive. Thomas Jefferson would have had no problem understanding the last two sentences. The thugs advocating torture fail to grasp the tiniest fragment of them. As such, they just piss me the fuck off!
farang,
'Seriously "Mike" you need to STFU asap. This isn't something funny, or up to debate.'
seems like a debate to me. Do you know something I don't?
Now I would like to see Dick Cheney & Don Rumsfield waterboarded and asked what they know about 9/11
come on Dave, can you answer what you would do? Would you cut off a head or two? Especially if it were an illegal invasion. Come on, answer the queston. You seem to be afraid of actually answering a question the afghans have to really face every day. Not like the paranoid delusions the pro-torture advocates continuously dream up in order to justify torture. I just love hearing those idiot ones like:
If terrorists were in a mall, and they had your daughter in a grave with only 30 min to live and only one terrorist were left and he wouldn't talk, would you torture him?
The rational anwer to this is to give that idiot a prozac because none of their paranoid delusions have ever come to pass. Despite the fact we constantly encourage just such a retribution from other countries by our national policy of torture. Eithe torture directly, or kidnapping people and sending them to countries that are at least honest enough to admit they torture without qualms. Rendition being the most cowardly form of torturing people because it attempts to remove personal responsibility from the heinus acts being conducted. The more we do these things, the more likely we will face a horrific terror act in this country. However, even if we do, the casualties will probably remain far less than the average number of deaths every year from car accidents (50k a year) smoking related, heart attacks, prescription drug overdoses, etc. Yet, cowards like you keep dreaming up these ludicrous scenarios in order to justify your barbaric acts. If it weren't so horrific in action, it would be laughable. As it is, only you are laughable. For nothing makes a person more laughable than being such an obvious coward willing to sell out every principle for the illusion of safety. That makes you far more pathetic than I would ever accept for my life. In fact, were I to ever become that pathetic, I would hope my friends would end my life for me. For nothing could be more horrible than to live a life filled with such delusional fear. Except maybe suffereing the consequences of such a deluded individual as yourself. That would be the person being tortured. That is what makes you sick. That is what makes it criminal. That is why we executed those that tortured in Japan and Germany. Because those that torture are criminals. It's that fucking simple.
Lets see if he can withstand the object rape with cleaning chemicals like those committed at Abu Graihb and documented in the Taguba Report... and You Tube that MFs.
"Hippies are pussies. "
Wanting peace makes you a pussy? Well I'll be. I thought that's what any morally minded human being strives for...
Another funny thing about hippies. Especially since the pro-torture crowd is so predominately christian. The hippie culture was the closest we've ever had to a group that actually called for living a life as Christ taught. And yet, the official christian response has always been one of hatred towards them. isn't that hilarious? Love, peace, even using weed (the messiah tradition was an old Judaic ritual which required lots of ganja!), anti-war, all of these were actively called for by both the hippies and Christ. Yet, our christian religion calls for the exact opposite on both. Would that make them anti-christians? I think so. Especially since they call for torture and support illegal wars. Enjoy the slaughter sheep!
[...] THE ARTICLE CAN BE FOUND HERE. Featured, Headlines, News Articles [...]
why are liberals always so angry and mean spirited
don't you mean, why are we so anti-torture? I'm not a liberal, but it seems to me that the pro=torture crowd is really stretching it when they call people who are against torture mean-spirited and angry. Well, not angry. Not when we are faced with people who think that torture is a perfectly acceptable thing to do to another human being. Mean-spirited? We save that for the interogator in the torture chambers. How fucking ignorant these idiots prove themselves with every fucking keystroke.
The question is not whether waterboarding is torture, but on whom and for what purpose it is being used?
Those three, count 'em 3 prisoners who were waterboarded were thought to have knowledge of acts of terror about to be carried out. They are not disc jockeys looking for ratings, but members of organizations that do not only waterboard, but supplant these methods with BEHEADINGS and SNUFF-FILMS!
As for morality, waterboarding is far more just and moral then cutting off someones head or raping their wife, then cutting off her head, then their children's heads, wetting their palate by eating the dog.
I'm just glad President Hussein will have the ability to declare Americans enemy combatants and then enhanced water board them. Let's us evil liberals declare all who vote for republicans enemy combatants, thereby nullifying their "constitutional" rights and water board the 30 million or so left who vote for the Pro Human Pain and Suffering candidates.
Water board all registered republicans, it's the only way we can be sure they aren't secretly in league with AQI...
Jim Lunsford if one is interested in a debate on the issue, or is hoping to enlighten one who thinks differently then this line of yours fails exponetially.
"How fucking ignorant these idiots prove themselves with every fucking keystroke."
Now you have turned the debate into a "fuck"fest, whilst splitting those interested in this issue into two flaccid groupings, 1) Pro-Torture, and 2) Anti-Torture. I submit that the issue is far more complex then you have stated.
For example, the first group does not wish torture to become commonplace, while the second grouping seems to have no problem seeing the first group tortured, Ironic? Indeed.
I sense that Hate has taken the place of debate, be well.
mike
farang,
'Seriously "Mike" you need to STFU asap. This isn't something funny, or up to debate.'
seems like a debate to me. Do you know something I don't?
Yeah. I realized one of us was was arguing with an idiot. The other "don't know."
FOX
The question is not whether waterboarding is torture, but on whom and for what purpose it is being used?
[You are correct, the "question" has already been answered: it is already established law that torture is illegal.]
Those three, count 'em 3 prisoners who were waterboarded were thought to have knowledge of acts of terror about to be carried out.
["Thought" being the operative word here "Fox." I might "think" you know where a missing child is too, but my "thinking so" isn't based on anything but a hunch, hence we do not torture folks because my hunch may be completely off-base, and we would end up torturing innocent Americans or foreigners. Is that so hard to grasp, "Fox"? Apparently for some, it is.]
They are not disc jockeys looking for ratings, but members of organizations that do not only waterboard, but supplant these methods with BEHEADINGS and SNUFF-FILMS! [Seriously, you need to stop watching fictional tv programs and taking them as factual. There were NO "plots uncovered" by torturing anyone, according to the folks that did the torturing. NONE. Zero. "Snuff Films" hahahaha, are you for real, Fox, or do you work for DOD?]
As for morality, waterboarding is far more just and moral then cutting off someones head or raping their wife, then cutting off her head, then their children's heads, wetting their palate by eating the dog. [And exactly WTF are you talking about? Those tortured were allegedly "enemy combatants" taken from foreign lands and flown to US military camps to be tortured. No "cutting off" of heads alleged, no "rapes" alleged, no "children's heads" alleged, no eating of dogs alleged.
Perhaps you refer to the just convicted US Army personnel, convicted of murdering an entire Iraqi family so he could rape the 14 year old daughter, whom he then murdered, then BBQ'd chicken with his buddies? Is THAT to whom you refer, "Fox"? We didn't need to torture him to get his confession, either.]
Basically "Fox", you have no valid argument for torture, other than Hollywood fiction type fantasy scenarios. That never happened.
While Americans that love their country, and wish it to belong to the civilized world, uphold the law banning torture.
Have a nice day, "Fox"
[Dave
You have some SERIOUS issues. The whole "tough guy" routine doesn't really work well over the internet. It just makes you look like a gigantic pussy. Tell me, would you act like this to my face? If so I go to BU Law. We should arrange a meeting.]
Yes yes, Jim does have 'some serious issues" and it seems you have no concept of ability to distinguish what they may be.
Looks to me like Mr. Lunsford, a veteran that has seen combat, has given his name to everyone "Dave." Perhaps you will be so kind as to give us your real full name, so we can look up "BU Law" students, and get a gander for ourselves at the big, bad "Dave."
I'm guessing your a wimp that thinks talking torture makes you sound intelligent. It doesn't, it makes you look weak and a bully that needs his clock cleaned. Give us your real name, tough guy, I am CERTAIN a meeting can be arranged.
[Dave
How mad are you right now? Also what is it with you that you insist on constantly throwing these awful and unclever insults out on somebody over the internet. Are you bipolar or something?]
In actual fact, "Mr. BU Law" student, the correct term would be "angry", not "mad."
Perhaps proper grammar is not important to BU law students, or perhaps the bar is lowered for admittance to BU Law for grammatically and morally challenged entrants, and you are Exhibit A. Maybe you should transfer to Yoo's UC Berkeley law class: you'd fit right in.
To Fox, dave and the rest of you immoral pr0-torture fuckheads.
So, we DEBATE whether torture is good now. What orwellian double-speak. Since it's proven ineffective for accurate actionable intel, since it's use is only conducted by police states, since it is against ours, and internation law, it is now debated and I should remain calm In fact, being fucking goddamned pissed off is being mentally unstable. Fuck you.
It is those who propose we should become a barbaric nation of torturers that are mentally unstable. You are not only fucking idiots if you think it is justifiable, you are criminals. That is by law. You fuckheads are the exact opposite of anything that is commonly interpreted by the meaning of good or healthy in mental journals.
I suppose I should be calm and all fucking pleasant? No, we should all be morally outfucking raged. Would you be calm if I were raping your daughter in front of your eyes? No, you might even curse. It would be called RIGHTEOUS ANGER. Just like you fuckheads are raping the constitution for which I swore three times to protect. You are raping every thing we patriots sacrificed in all our wars, and yet, Im mentally unstable for being angry as you rape every tradition of law and order we stan for. No, I would be a real asshole in person, for murderous thugs like you propose we should all become deserve only one thing: Convictions of murder and punishments of death. Fuck all of you fucks.
farang,
not sure if calling me an idiot clarifies the issue...
you continue to say there is no debate, but it seems clear to me that there is one. i'm not necessarily pro-waterboarding, but there does seem to be some grey area. No one is condoning ripping off fingernails, burning eyes, and beatings, as those are clrearly tortuous. But there is a camp that claims that b/c WB leaves no permanent damage, and b/c we do it to our own troops, that if torture, it is a very mild form thereof, and possibly justified given what the 3 men who we waterboarded did to this country.
Continue to call me names. It doesn't bother me, but I'd prefer an argument. you can pretend there is no debate on the issue, but this blog serves as a counterexample. You might say that this blog serves only as an example that people like me are sub-human in that we debate the intricacies of torture. But there are a lot of people who agree with me -- normal, working americans who just want our homeland safe. If you are prepared to call us all unworthy of debate, then so be it.
farang,
are you serious with the angry/mad splitting of hairs.
this here is a debate among people with too much time on their hands (I include myself in that classification), not an essay writing. You disagree with dave, fine. And he with you. Argue based on the merits of the posts, not mad vs. angry. You look pedantic and lose credibility when you harp on details like that.
you are subhuman if you are pro-torture. We do it to our troops in the SERE program because it is torture. Ask Jesse Ventura, ask John McCain. We executed the japanese after WW2 for the specific torture technique of waterboarding. Why? Because it is torture. It does't work for intel gathering. That is a fact. I'd love to hear an argument for torture involving morality. Besides that stupid fucking relativism. There is no moral ground for torture. So, it doesn't work for intel. It is illegal. It is immoral. What is the debate about then? Maybe it is about how sick you are for promoting it. The photos they are discussing in the white house show us also raping little iraqi boys and also show us murdering them. This content leaked out by senators outraged over their content. I suppose that buttfucking little boys is a debatable issue as well? Fuck you, you have no ground to stand on in defense of torture. If I had the choice between being waterboarded (prolonged state of drowning) 83 times and being beheaded. I'd take a beheading. Why? Because I'm not such a moron that I can't understand it is fucking torture. If I were waterboarded 83 times by this country, and released. I would be a horrible danger to it. Not because I am super soldier, just well trained. And also, a country as morally decayed as this one is becoming, a country so cowardly and afraid as this one is becoming, would be quite easy to put in a state of terror. You fucking idiots that promote torture have no ground to stand upon. Yet, you still stand for it. Why? because you are morally depraved and too afraid of a non-existent bogeyman to stand for principle. The argument is really about are you a fucking murdering tyrant, or are you a decent person. You've made your position quite clear you murdering fuck.
Look, I haven't made my position clear. You ever heard of devil's advocate? I happen to think that we can have a conversation about waterboarding and not dehumanize ourselves.
For one, raping little Iraqi's is worse than torture -- it is senseless evil and those responsible should be locked up. I don't think that is a debatable issue, so be careful not to ascribe words to me and then argue with a point I didn't make.
Secondly, we did not execute the Japanese after WWII for this form of waterboarding. We executed them for filling our bellies with dry rice and then making us drink water until our stomachs exploded. We executed them for waterboarding us with salt water until we died -- not 'for a maximum of 40 seconds under very controlled conditions, stopping at signs of extreme distress, and only to 3 very bad men.'
Equating what we did at Gitmo to what the Japanese did in WWII is not only morally misleading, it is historically inaccurate. I believe you fancy yourself an historian?
Finally, you may not want to hear this from me, as you obviously have animosity for my opinions, but on this memorial day, I'd like to thank you for your service and your sacrifice. Them men and women in uniform protect our free speech, and allow us to have arguments like this without the police state listening in and taking action. So Thanks, Jim.
What could possibly make Torture Debatable?
1. Torture IS Illegal. This Federal Felony Crime carries penalties of 20 years to life
OR DEATH If the person Tortured Dies. Please see the Federal Torture Law at http://tinyurl.com/besdd3
2. Since Torture is Illegal Torture Is Never Debatable. Murder and Rape aren't.
Either Torture is illegal or it is not, and Torture is a Federal Capital Crime.
Gee, it is illegal and Not Debatable!
Come on people. If we allow our officials to torture anyone, or rendition (disappear) anyone, they will eventually use it on American Citizens like you and I. There is evidence that they have already done that to American Citizens.
Would you support Torture after being forced to watch your wife or daughter being tortured? I refuse to wait until it comes to that.
If you do nothing else for your Country today,
SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture
http://ANGRYVoters.org
Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot
.
the best you can do is split hairs on degree? How fucking weak is that argument? Fuck your thanks. I wouldn't want the gratitude of a sheep.
the debate is not about if torture should be illegal. it should be. i agree with you.
the debate is whether or not waterboarding is torture.
you clearly know a lot, so i find it hard to believe that you are incapable of this debate. we all condemn torture, johnkennedy.
BTW...I believe your little brother is well acquainted with near-drowning. Perhaps he could be able to enlighten us on whether or not WB = drowning?
Jim,
You don't have to accept my thanks. I respect that. And I respect that you would have animosity for torture done by our govt, as torture is counterproductive and threatens the safety of the men and women serving overseas. My argument is not that we should torture -- it is that what we have done to those 3 men may not in fact be torture. I'm exploring the variables, and it seems to me to fall into a grey area...
Yes. I am splitting hairs on degree. That's why first degree murderers get life in prison or death, and those convicted of manslaughter get 1 year, or sometimes time served. This world is full of shades of grey, or degrees, and in spite of your diatribes, it seems that many people are entering this unfortunate, but necessary discussion over waterboarding, which based on the debate, clearly resides in one of those grey areas.
An accurate description of SERE wb was given much earlier. It was closer to the Jap version than the Madcow version. All courts have deemed it torture. It's why the catholic church used in during the inquisition. It's why SERE candidates use it (and this is not some pansy school given to just anyone. A few, select individuals undertake this course out of patriotism and a sense of duty. They all call it torture as well. ). Waterboarding is a state of prolonged drowning. Drowning is a horrible death. It only becomes euphoric when you are almost dead. A state they purposelly keep you from in WB to increase the horror of it. And yes, I've been pulled out of water twice. Hell, hypothermia becomes euphoric at the end, and it is a horrible way to die as well. I discovered this in Desert Storm. A little dysentary and freezing night in the mud while being 30 lbs lighter than my healthy weight. 6/2" isn't to be mixed with 145 lbs. Am only inserting this to clarify the idiots who claim drowning is euphoric. It is torture. It doesn't work. now, let's move on to the debate as to whether sodomizing little boys is okay if we wear a condom. After all, this would be the splitting hair's position. Waterboarding is illegal, immoral, and unfortunately since some people believe it is debateable, is a sign of our fall. I will fight to the death to prevent that from happening. For death is certainly better than a future in which such cowards as you pro-torture people would have us live in. Fuck you torturing cowards. Don't rape our constitution and expect me to be all nice and polite. Airborne were not meant to be polite. And yes, I do fancy myself a bit of a historian. It's why I earned my MLA in it with a minor in law. because I understand the importance of history and the importance of the rule of law. Something you debaters apparantly don't.
To end the debate on fine hairs. The method employed by our government is definitely not the one used on madcow. It is far worse. See the one by the SERE graduate for this method. On your scale, it would be Murder One. It is horrible. It is barbaric. It is crimminal. It is wrong. It doesn't even fucking work. What's to debate?
As an aside; I do consider myself tough. But if you waterboarded me for fifteen minutes, I would admit to having flown the planes into the towers. That is how horrible it is.
you may not believe it, but I value your opinion. You have some evidence on which to base your claim that WB is torture, and I'll read more about it.
However, it is an opinion. Any argument you make trying to assert that what you say is 'fact' is faulty.
Raping a little boy is wrong no matter how you do it. Japanese WB is torture. Gitmo WB may or may not be. If your mind cannot handle that the world isn't always black and white, so much the worse for you.
Your inability to wrap your mind around this debate does not make me a coward.
have you been waterboarded, Jim?
No. but I've also never been buttraped. I do know people who have, and they didn't enjoy it. They said it was hell. i have drowned though, and it was terrifying and horrible. Which is what waterboarding is, only prolonged. Which is how my friends described it, as drowning prolonged. Amazing, it is how Madcow described it. Why? Becaue that is exactly what it is. It is not a debate or opinion as to it's legality, or it's definition as torture. That has been settled in many courts of law. All around the world. It was universally acknowledged as torture. Until the traitor bush came along, it was illegal here. So, if you think the opinions and judgements rendered by all legal bodies are not fact, I suggest you go and get yourself waterboarded. I don't need to have my ass raped to know I wouldn't like it.
i was just curious. you don't need to get defensive when i ask you a question.
if you had been waterboarded, then i would value your opinion even more.
i am sure it is very unpleasant. why, according to the CIA, would it have produced half of the info we have on Al-qaida's hierarchy and lead to the capture of the mastermind of the 'second wave' of attacks on the west coast. It has to be very unpleasant to lead to that kind of information. But as to whether or not THE SPECIFIC FORM OF INTERROGATION USED AT GUANTANAMO is torture, the debate is still open, and you must recognize that.
The courts all over the world have identified Japanese WB as torture, but not this form of interrogation. We will see what the supreme court says, as it may come to that.
waterboarding did not produce the good intel. Intelligent interogations did. These are the methods being fought for in Congress by the agent who did produce the results you credit Waterboarding for producing. What did waterboarding produce? Nothing. I will get angry when people don't bother becoming informed citizens. These are not new discoveries. Good citizens are informed citizens. It takes personal responsiblity to stay informed. It is not my fault that people are too lazy to be good citizens and stay informed of what our government is up to. I guess American Idol is more important than what devilish things our government is up to for most people, but those are the same mentally lazy sheep that blindly shout Support the troops, when they have no fucking idea what is going on. I say support the protestors. Of course, they must be in the little free speech zones out of everyone's hearing. What a crock of shit this country is becoming.
dude, seriously. i think you are worth having a discussion with, because you obviously are informed and obviously care strongly about america.
however, don't tell me i'm lazy because i disagree with you. I combed over the CIA documents, which do indicate that we got good intel from waterboarding. An informed citizen combs over the CIA bradbury report, as well as listens your opinions and learns from them, as well as reads as much as possible to help defend freedom.
I support the troops and the protesters, and my support is not that of a sheep. It is someone who supports the 1st amendment. Incidentally, I also support the 6th amendment, but that amendment doesn't apply to enemy combatants as long as the war is going on. The fact that it is not a declared war, however, troubles me on legal and moral grounds.
[...] producers write for him. Letz waterboard the smary jew and the millionaire yenta katie couric The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... Watch him be waterboarded in the following video: [...]
an earlier post refers to Reagans law concerning torture on enemy combatants out of uniform. Basically, it said don't do it. Illegal. no ifs ands or buts on the matter. Read something besides the cia press releases. They also don't mention their coke smuggling out of South America during Iran/Contra, nor their drug smuggling during Vietnam, nor their drug smuggling out of Afghanistan. Nor their supplying hte c4 for the 93 world trade center bombing. Funny, one ex-fbi station chief said that if you wanted to get rid of domestic terrorism, you should disband the CIA. Also, the best the FBI can do now, though they have infiltrated practically every protest group in the country, is bust 4 retarded crackheads in New York. Wow, our government in action.
[...] The upshot? "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture." Mancow has my respect, not only for practicing what he preaches, but also for honestly admitting that he was wrong. Too bad Hannity is not the same way. It seems that Mancow has more honesty in his little finger than Hannity has in his whole body. I want to see what the hyperpartisans are going to say now. Are they going to accept this, or has Mancow just now magically become a Liberal jihadist who hates America? Article is here. [...]
hey# 436: i followed your link...maybe you should just stay on that site with your kkk friends?
While reading through this growing list of comments, I keep coming upon a recurrent argument. That is the effectiveness of the use of torture.
Just how can even the casual reader of history have missed the most best examples of the uses and effectiveness of this practice as the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem witch trails. Now these people knew how to get information and confessions.
If we are extremely fortunate Gitmo may one day be placed next on this list. I would hope this point will be given some bit of thought by all those who's twisted little minds would still not think of water boarding as a form of TORTURE. It seems I read not long ago about the Attorney General of the state of Texas prosecuting some law enforcement personell for water boarding some suspects into a confession. I must admit I don't remember all the details, but it seems G W Bush was the Gov. at the time. Of course, he may have been on vacation at the time.
Also while reading these comments I have noticed a good deal of the come from Jim Lunsford.
Jim if these idiots have not yet figured out that: 1) Torture is illegal; 2) Water boarding is torture; 3) Water boarding just might be illegal; then there is not much else you can say or do to help raise their collective I Q out of the negative range. Jim, I commend you for your tireless efforts, but I think it is time now for a nap. HA HA .
I can't remember when I have read so much about so little. This has been one discussion on which I was surprised as to the amount of disagreement. But then again, I guess some things are just not as cut and dried as we sometimes think.
As I said before; a person could think of torture being those things which you would not like to see done to your children. Oh wait. Maybe that could only be the thoughts of someone who loves their children and wants to keep them safe. It seems I keep forgetting about those who would pray up small children and delight it seeing them harmed !!!
Thank you for your words, and advice, but i must refuse. As a patriot, I feel it is my duty to keep pounding away at the miscreats who attack every principle upon which our Costitution was written. That we have become a nation of ignorant sadists has not been lost to me, but that doesn't mean I will give up the fight. Once you are Airborne, you are always Airborne. Airborne never quits. It's how we became so feared by our enemies. Notably the tortureing nazis. They called us Devils in baggy pants. A nation that tortures obviously does not have God on their side. At least not a god I would worship. If there is a loving god out there, surely he would be damning us for our sins. Especially considering this is supposed to be such a christian nation. Unfortunately, until christianity embraces the two laws of christianity (1- love god 2-love thy neighbor) i refuse to acknowledge it as a religion at all. After all, it doesn't follow it's own laws. Much like our government. Instead, it is nothing but a cruel and medieval police state over the soul, so to speak. Strange, since it appears so soulless. I mention christianity as the proponents of torture come mostly from christian adherents. The same ones obviously that hate their neighbor, as the muslims ARE our neighbors. The same ones that bash gays, burn synagogues, burn books, praise war, these are the same ones that rob you of your money (god has a terriblee problem handling money) and tells you it's okay to torture. Some might say, after examining their doctrine (The New Testament) and comparing it to their actions, that they are actually anti-christians. I am one of those. Just another attack using the pro=torturers own twisted lack of morality against them. exposing them to the light so they may shrivel up like the mean-spirited lttle evil things they are. For evil cannot survive in the light, that's why foul deeds are commited in the shadow.
guys, it may sicken you to hear this, but i'd be on your side 95% of the time in debating any issue of the day. many of the things you write are certainly worthy of inspection, and you clearly love this country.
however, i just don't understand why you pretend that there is no debate. i am against torture, but i am not convinced that the WAY WE DID WATERBOARDING counts as torture. i'm not saying i will never change my mind.
like it or not, we are having a discussion about waterboarding -- and this discussion has taken some tangents into interesting facets of history, psychology, and philosophy. But this discussion is a debate, and that's just something that you'll have to deal with. I'm not saying I can't be convinced. I'm just saying that pretending that everything you say is written in stone is not a very effective means of argument. You obviously care what I think, and what other people think, so I suggest, if you really want to change peoples' minds, argue like men. I'm not saying you need to be civil. I'm just saying that offering backups to your points is much more effective than saying I am a fucktard with a negative IQ.
Also, Just like you guys, I am a patriot, but just because I want to explore the whole issue before deciding that it is torture does not make me a coward, an idiot, lazy (quite the opposite), a raper of the constitution, a fucking fucktard murderer, a fan of the raiders, or someone who pulls the tag off the mattress before purchase.
Well Mike, since waterboarding is classified in international law as torture, in the Us until Bush changed it, it was classified as law, we executed japanese for doing this specific charge as torturing, SERE school uses it because it is torture, all grads of SERE school say it's torture, even the wussy version by madcow got him to call it torture after 6 sics, in fact everyone who has ever undergone it calls it torture, I just am not sure how much more convincing is necessary to end a debate. Perhaps the only thing that would convince you is to undergo the process yourself. That would be stupid, but so is going against the flow of so many truly qualified experts. But, that's just my opinion. Do it the SERE style though, just so there is no question in your mind. Look at a previous post in which it was accurately described by someone who went through it. By the way, he also called it torture. It is an intentional prolonged state of drowning. It can and does leave permanent lung damage and can kill. That's why they have medics standing by, because it is so easy to die from drowning. In any court of law, all of this evidence would constitute far more evidence than is necessary for reasonable doubt. By your standards, I guess that my sarcastic remarks concerning the ass raping of iraqi children would be debated depending on whether or not condoms were involved. Hate to tell you, but if you don't get it by now, then the only thing that would convince you is to do it yourself. And that is just plain fucking stupid. Don't forget to try out ass fucking later on to determine if it is torture. Especially if done with harsh chemicals as lube. An abu gharib technique.
i've noticed that you have actually started debating. good. there have been fewer insults and slurs in your last couple posts and more backup. now I am going to question the nature of your backup (which I do appreciate you providing). when you say
"all grads of SERE school say it's torture" you can't be serious. The evidence has to be very strong to use the word ALL, but you do. Prove to me that ALL grads of SERE say it's torture.
Then you say
"we executed japanese for doing this specific charge as torturing..."
I can be convinced of this, if you show me evidence that what we executed the Japanese for was what we did at GITMO. I was under the impression that we executed them for much worse, and not specifically WB. I understand that WB was like their warmup.
You have actually made some points that are making me lean towards agreeing with you that WB is torture. The fact that many people who undergo it say it's torture is compelling. Then again, there are well-documented arguments, some of which I have made, that suggest it is not. That is why this is such an engaging debate. You have finally entered it by providing evidence. I have questioned specific points of that evidence, and I now waiting for a response to my questions. Is this not a better way to do things?
Mike, You seem to be the type of fellow who would be up for a little challenge. I would ask you to refer back to my first post #323, and may be print out a copy. Take this to a few friends, whom you can trust, and ask them to surprise you some night. You may need to pay them a little to convince them of your sincerity, if so pay them in advance--this is dangerous.
If you, or anyone else, should decide to take on this challenge; please understand that you do so at your own risk.
If you, or anyone else, should do this; I would greatly appreciate your contacting me directly with your personal opinion as to it's effects on you and any changes you would care to make to any of your previous statements. Send your e-mails to: cducain@consultant.com .
I sincerely hope and trust NO ONE would be so foolish as to try something so totally insane and take up this challenge. I simply wish to again make my point about the way in which W B is carried out when it is done for real.
The important point is that torture techniques of this sort were NOT developed to find the truth. They were developed by Stalin's KGB to force people to confess to things they DiDN"T do. That's why the old scenario of "Wouldn't you torture someone to get information to save lives" is confused. It's also, I think, why Cheney tried to use these techniques to prove links between Saddam and Al Qaeda, and why it wouldn't have proven anything if they had "found" such links.
These things are not to be treated as fun and games.
Cranford Ducain, Thank you. I salute you.
i read your post. sounds horrible. not while I'm not sure that the detainees were dropped on any concrete floors, it appears that you were waterboarded for 30 minutes. I have never argued that these things are fun and games, or that waterboarding is fun.
Did those who administered your treatment stop every 40 seconds for you to breathe? You probably were in too much of a state to count seconds, so i'll ask you this: Did they stop, during the 30 minute session, about 45 times? That's what they had to do at GITMO.
your conclusion is that WB is not fun. I am not arguing that it is fun. I am arguing that it may not be torture. Did you experience severe pain? Did the pain stop immediately after they stopped dripping water on the cloth?
I'm not denigrating your experience. I'm genuinely curious about your experience.
Mike, it took madcow 6 secs to say it's torture. his method was certainly less harsh than the real methods described. At what point do you just have to accept that waterboarding is torture? This is not a debate, it is an exercise in demonstrating your stupidity. My one request: if you decide to ever be stupid enough to do as he challenged you to do, get it on video. I'd pay to watch it and make sure they get your assessment of it afterwards. Though I imagine that about 2 seconds into it we would know what you thought it was. By the way, the people we do it to at SERE school have one additional advantage. They know their "captors" aren't out to kill them. Ours have every reason to believe the opposite as evidenced by the recent photographs Obama refuses to releae. That is to say, if Sen.
oops, didn't finish. Sen. Graham states those photos and videos are of boys being assraped and prisoners murdered along with other gross and criminal acts.,
whatever. I've made way more concessions in this debate than you have. I've gotta go. You are obviously an asset to this country. I leave you only with the plea that you consider the opinions of others. This was not a discussion about rape, burning, removing fingers, or anything that would leave permanent damage, which is why it is in a grey area, and worthy of debate. I appreciate your opinion, and you are to be admired for your consistency. However, I think you fail to admit that you may be wrong, an allowance that I have made. You obviously are a vet, and a brave man. I suggest that you learn to argue like one. Best of luck to you, and thank you for your service.
How about lung damage, death, and a lifetime of nightmares? Believe me, I've had my share of nightmares and they lasted far longer than the incidents which created them. As did the various aberrations in behavior during the waking hours. Not helped by a lack of VA help, but that's another story. Death and physical harm are part of WB. Just read the warnings given by the men who have had them done to them. It is extremely dangerous. I don't have to make concessions in areas like this. I have nothing to concede.
Mike, I would hazard to speculate it would not matter a hole lot if this was done on concrete or a feather bed, much the same thoughts which raced through my mind were also in every ones. "MY GOD I'M GOING TO DIE." I will admit that the men who administered this to me, did stop from time to time.; but, I was a little preoccupied with trying to get a clear breath of air to do any counting.
As for pain. I can't say that anything ever felt as good as when they stopped and pick me up. Of course, this relief did not last long because I could now get a full breath, and that was like sucking fire down into my lungs. At that moment I can remember the must awful sensation of fear I have experienced before or since. It was at least an hour before I could draw a normal breath. I was constantly gagging and coughing each breath was ragged and choppy. All this just seemed to by my "personal problem" at the time and this is the main point of resentment which I carried for a long time. I was aware of this being a part of my training, but that really didn't help very much, and I can't help but feel a kind of connected sympathy for others who go through this. You don't have to agree with some one to pity them, they are still human beings. I guess this is the main reason I have a problem with any abuse which people inflict upon one another. Be it physical, mental, or emotional.
Waterboarding is one of the oldest forms of torture used by the US military. They did it to Native Tribes when stealing their land and they did it in the Philippines while beating and abusing the native people after buying the islands from Spain.
The US military has had an unofficial policy of looking the other way during waterboarding because it is a type of torture that can be easily covered up.
It's time this stops; we claim to be a progressive country which seeks to provide for human rights and decency all over the world and yet we brainwash our young men and women of the armed forces to believe that this is acceptable behavior.
The worst part is that an overwhelming majority of those tortured have ended up innocent of all crimes they were accused.
People claim that torture is a needed thing in order to combat evil but I disagree; one cannot fight evil by becoming more evil.
"He who fights monsters should take care that he does not become one. For as you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you." - Nietzche
Agreed. And perhaps if we acted like we were grown ups we wouldn't have so many wars. The last just one was the American Revolutionary War. What a wonderful world this would be if we just stopped attacking those other countries. They don't want to attack us, they all want us to stop attacking them.
I agree with all of the above. Except Cheney should be waterboarded on a splintery old plank with cow dunged water in a dirty old swamp by a big bearded Sunni Arab who don't like Republicans very much.
Rush, too.
I just don't think liberals are all mean spirited and ignorant like mike and jim are. Not everyone is the same, you know.
I wish you all well.
I don't understand the euphoria that has broken out among my liberal Dem friends over this water boarding story. In fact, as a life long Dem, myself, I couldn't care less how many right wing wind bags want to try it as if it were the latest water park thrill. That simply is not the point. The real point of this exercise -- if it is as advertised -- is that water boarding works.
It is a realistic drowning simulation that will put the fear of Allah in those on the receiving end of it. It doesn't maim, physically injure or kill those exposed to it. It just works. Armed with this information, I have no desire to learn firsthand anymore about it. If using this procedure would likely yield much needed information, I would have no compunction whatsoever about using it.
In the last analysis, I believe it is the height of intellectual dishonesty and distortion, to compare water boarding to the burning, cutting or beating of human flesh; to the breaking or dislocation of bones; to permanently maiming or killing an individual. We need to move beyond this phony issue.
By the way, why is it all the neo-con fascists assume that anyone against torture is a liberal? I supported Ron Paul and also Cynthis McKinney. Ron Paul is a true conservative and Cynthia McKinney is just the loveliest patriot who is never afraid to tell the truth. I support all patriots, fight all it's enemies (neo-con traitors in support of torture). I am a TRUE conservative. Actually a Constitutionalist. And yet, anyone with a shred of decency is attacked as a liberal. I am mean-spirited because I won't stand for the guresome act of torture? Because I am outroaged over the outright destruction of all we used to stand for in the world? The only liberal party I belong to is one that is liberal with courage, honesty, justice, and principles. If that is what you mean by liberal, then I am guilty as charged. Fuck you davr. calling someone liberal (as an insult as you obviously are) because they don't agree with torturing people pretty much proves the point that the neo-con facsists promoting torture are all suffering from severe mental retardation along with their moral depravity and just being an over all coward who is suffering from severe paranoid delusions as well. Soory, I will never have anything kind to say to murderers or child molestors. Just my "liberal" natrure.
Sir Winston, waterboarding works to get the information you want. Not necessarily the truth. in fact, it isn't used to get the truth. That has never been the point of torture. But, you neo-con fascists have never understood truth anyway. Read all my posts to see what true conservatives think of your cowardly traitor party. And we are all traitors for being opposed to torture. I always love how neo-cons use that and also infer we are cowards. However, note how their GODS Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld all dodged the draft. That being only the smallest shwing of their charachter makeup. Murder, treason, crimes against humanity. Those are the charges I bring against them. winson, you too obviously suffer from all the mental illnesses I have previously pointed out. Fuck you you cowardly little treasonous douchebag murder supporting scum
"mike
the debate is not about if torture should be illegal. it should be. i agree with you.
the debate is whether or not waterboarding is torture."
No, that "debate" was decided when we hung Japanese for doing it to our military. Then declared it torture by law.
Like I said, arguing with an idiot is a waste of time.
You can "debate" gravity too, mike. But it makes one of us look the fool.
There is NOTHING DEBATABLE about Torture!
1. Torture IS Illegal. A FEDERAL Capital CRIME like murder.
This Federal Felony Crime carries penalties of 20 years to life
OR DEATH If the person Tortured Dies. Please see the Federal Torture Law at http://tinyurl.com/besdd3
2. Since Torture is Illegal Torture Is Never Debatable. Murder and Rape aren't.
Either Torture is illegal or it is not, and Torture is a Federal Capital Crime.
Gee, it is illegal and Not Debatable!
Why are we even having a conversation about the usefulness of Torture?
It is Illegal.
If you all support enforcement of existing Federal Laws
you must support Prosecution of those in the Bush Administration
Who Ordered Torture or Conspired to Torture.
Read our Federal Torture Law http://tinyurl.com/besdd3
Would you support Torture after being forced to watch your wife or daughter being tortured?
If you do nothing else for your Country today,
SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot
.
actually there is no debate on whether or not torture is illegal. It is
There is no debate on whether or not waterboarding is torture. It is.
These points were settled many times, over a period of many years. The punishment? It is a capital crime.
The debate? none. Settled around the world that torture is unacceptable by every civilized country in the world. Also settled was that murder, rape, child molestation, treason, etc. were all illegal. Why don't these nazi cowards debate these issues as well? AFter all, the framework they created through the illegal and unconstitutional use of torture also laid the groundwork, or atmosphere, for all of these crimes which were also committed in the neo-con army. A nazi army filled with assraping murdering traitors. Not just the opinion of "liberals" but by Reagan, George Washington, and every other president before Bush jr. A piece of shit whose father headed the worlds largest cocaine cartel (the cia's involvement and his knowledge and approval of is well documented in the Iran/Contra trials). His grandfather was a well-known and vital part of the nazi financial world. His grandfather's bank being responsible for about 35% of the financing the nazis had, both pre-war and during the war. In fact, all the way up to the time when the US government shut down his bank for trading with the enemy. No, bushes family is no stranger to illegal, immoral, and treasonous acts. It is their heritage. And all you neo-cons love him so fucking much. As I have asked many times: Why do you neo-cons hate the rule of law? Why do you hate the Constitution? Why? Because you are all cowards and traitors.
By the way, for all of you pro=torture support the troop cowards. Perhaps you should watch a video from, a former SERE instructor who performed this torture on our SEALs. It includes an excerpt of a journalist re-doing a more realistic waterboarding. Far longer than the actual one done by madcow, and less than the ones we do on our enemies. It includes his congressional testimony and his professional opinion on what it means to our troops if captured.
Go to YouTube: put Waterboarding 101 - Olbermann
Now watch, and tell me it isn't torture. Gee, how many laws and experts do we have to have testify before you morons get it?
Author: Jim Lunsford
Comment:
gee veronica, watch out or you will be lumped in the vulgar crowd with me. Remember appearances are more important than substance with this crowd. lol Don't you find it an amazing coincidence that the most pro-torture advocates are also the least informed citizens? Hmmm..... coincidence?
------
Gee, I'll lose sleep worry about what other people think of me ... LOL. Unfortunately, it's not a coincidence - it's a reality. Sad, isn't it?
Yes Veronica, it is sad. Especially when those who sacrificed so much to start this great country consistently stated that a good citizen was an informed citizen. Vigilance, mis-trust of own government, dissent were all virtures in their words and actions. Yet today, especially among the pro-torture crowd, these are all viewed as suspicious, treacherous, and call for our arrest. Yes, there are calls for the arrest of people such as we. In fact, the MIAC report by the DHS counts veterans, supporters of the Consitution, and Ron Paul supporters among the most dangerous of the domestic terror threats this country faces today. I mention these three because I fit into all three of them. lol Luckily for me, I realize that death is nothing to fear, and that to serve is not to be a blind sheep follower, but a vibrant, dissenting, and vocal cry for those ideals espoused by our founding fathers. They were not perfect, but I would put any of them up against any of these pro-torture cowards we have here. It is especially sad to see such a horrendous policy as torture is considered "debatable" as if inhumanity and our descent into beastly behavior is somehow virtuous and commendable. Thanks, Jim
it is so surprising that sleep deprivation, loud music and waterboarding is so shocking. when americans are blown up with roadside bombs, gun fire and planes being flown into buildings. 1000's of americans being killed by the muslim terrorist bastards - think back to how we all felt on 9/11. terrorists need to be dealt with swiftly. The new president is an asshole that doesn't understand anything - continually talks out his ass unless the speech writer preps him fully. His campaign promises included closing club gitmo - why do you think no other country wants to take possession of the human debris residing there, they are very bad people. The first mistake that was made was not to put a bullet between the eyes of these jerks.
How many attacks were avoided by interrogating that garbage? When these cowards wear masks and cut peoples heads off our administration wants to befriend these whack jobs? They want to understand them better. Wait until the next big attack - we can then see where the bleeding heart liberal shit bags will stand. What rights should terrorists have that aren't citizens of this country? playing loud music and underwear on the heads of these pigs is just so awful - if it saved one american life it was worth it all the way!
Our new president is very good at public appearance and writing fat checks. Other than this he is a useless piece-o-shit! What kind of ass hole runs all over the world apologizing for our existence? I don't believe that he is an american citizen - the man is an embarrassment to us all. History will prove how useless this guy is. When the novelty of a half / half wears off the reality will hit everybody. Hey he isn't black or white - he's a bit of both. I just hope for the sake of our nation that the damage he is doing can somehow be reversed. No need to talk about the auto industry debacle in this forum!
God bless all of the liberal baby killers that have posted here - you are all wonderful people!
I'd suck Mancows dick!
[...] the Raw Story: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture “Chicago radio host Erich “Mancow” Muller decided he’d get himself [...]
"tortureallthe way"
Thank you for so ably regurgitating the repuglicunt's talking points. You make Dickhead Cheney the rest of the Bush Crime Family proud.
Now, go stick your head in the toilet and flush it a few times, pussy.
Veronica. I think I love you! lol You go girl.
Hey torturealltheway, I'm perfectly fine with losing an american life. As long as it's yours.
Jim: Thanks - just calling 'em as I see 'em!!
So what was the point?...
In the seemingly interminable back and forth between Left and Right over enhanced interrogation techniques, the self-righteous fulmination of liberals over waterboarding was nearly matched by the efforts of more than a few conservative partisans......
What a bunch of crap you guys are wollering in. You probabbly all believe the government should give you anything you want as well.
mike,
1. You have chosen to define "torture" as something that is physically damaging only. That's your first mistake. Psychological and emotional damage is also significant. It's why there's such a legal concept as emotional and verbal abuse. Being forced to endure a terrifying situation IS torture, regardless of physical effects.
2. As has been stated, waterboarding CAN be physically damaging. Yes, the version of it that OUR country practices.
3. A great number of people who have personally undergone waterboarding say that it is torture, as has also been stated numerous times.
4. If waterboarding isn't torture, then what is it? And why would our military even bother with it? If it were just slightly unpleasant it would be even less productive than "real" torture - which as far as learning truth goes, isn't productive at all. But at least it gives the torturers what they want to hear. If waterboarding weren't torture it wouldn't even give that.
I could understand your desire to debate this at first, but at this point there's been more than enough presented to convince almost anyone that waterboarding = torture. What more do you need to see, honestly?
"What a bunch of crap you guys are wollering in. You probabbly all believe the government should give you anything you want as well."
BobDuncan,
Yes, that's one of the many stereotypical attacks on the "Liberals." But I, for one, don't think the government should give me anything. Well, except for basic human rights, like the ones its rapidly eroding away. This applies to BOTH masks of the beast, Dem and Rep, so not only am I not your stereotype fantasy Liberal, I'm not a Liberal at all. The same could be said for a lot of the other anti-torture people here. But if it helps you sleep at night to tell yourself that being against torture means we're one-dimensional "LIberals' who want government hand-outs, then by all means continue.
It's like me telling you "You probably believe everything the government tells you," which is obviously not accurate. I mean, I'm sure you don't believe "Liberal" government. They're all full of crap and liars. It's only the Republicans - your particular fake mask of the system - that you trust without question. "Your side" would never lie, right?
[...] conservative radio host gets waterboarded!!! I am surprised no one has talked about this...unless I just didn't notice which is usually the case. The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... [...]
Liberal (Social Punks) Put your ass on that table and lets see if you talk all that smack, at least he had the balls to do it?! The crazy anti american radicals who want to cut your heads off as well as the rest deserve a lot more than this..
You people have way to much time on your hands go do something productive and target practice on as many evil fags who want to legalize immoral marriage as you can and do the country a big favor. better yet capture several of them and practice water boarding on them.
I've got an even better suggestion for you, Unreal Patriot - since you're a fan of waterboarding, since you seem to think it's not torture, why don't you have your punk-ass waterboarded and tell us if it's torture or not.
At least Mancow had the balls to do it, and was proven wrong (waterboarding really IS torture - imagine that!). What's your excuse, pussy?
479Alderpax
Yep, Just as I suspected. You are a clear representation of the assholes on the left in this country.
The Government should stay out of our lives period. Somehow, I don't see yo as agreeing with that
484 Bob Duncan
Well then somehow, you're wrong. If you truly believe the government should stay out of our lives, then you and I agree there. The difference being that I'm not "anti-Liberal" or "anti-Conservative." I'm just anti-government, period. I don't view one party as "the enemy;" I see both sides as equally full of shit. What they say about themselves, and what they say about each other - all full of shit. When I say that I think government should give me basic human rights, I mean exactly what you're saying - they should stay the hell out of my life.
If I'd apply any label to myself, it would be anarchist - as in, I think the people should govern themselves at a local/community level, and there should be no monolithic, all-powerful federal government at all. In that scenario it would be much harder for clinical psychopaths to rule like they do now. As it is, our country has undergone what is called "Ponerization" - i.e., a populace - ruled by psychopaths and sociopaths - who have been gradually trained to think that all the insane crap done by their leaders is normal and acceptable. Until ultimately, a significant number of the people are borderline psycho themselves. It's happened over and over through history to many nations, and now it's happening to us.
As for waterboarding and torture, this shouldn't even be considered a political issue. I shouldn't be accused of being a "typical left-wing asshole" because I'm against our country torturing people. It's insane just how much this "us vs. them" political party crap has manipulated the populace into simple-minded feuding. I guess it works to take our minds off of what's actually going on, though, which is the point. This is much bigger than which ridiculous, manipulated "party" one belongs to. That's all I'm saying here.
482 fagsmustdie,
You're probably just a troll, but sadly there really are people who think like this. This mindset is a perfect example of Ponerization (see 485). Give a country like this another few years and it will be Nazi Germany all over again. Or the Crusades. Or witch-burnings. Or the Inquisition. Or the Bolshevik Revolution. Take your pick, it's all the same. Psychopaths are psychopaths, no matter which label or organization they hide behind. Put them in power and it always goes the same way - constant war, conquering, rule by fear, and total control, all performed with no conscience whatsoever.
[...] Seconds Conservative Radio Host Gets Waterboarded To Prove It's Not Torture; Lasts 6 Seconds The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... Is Fatbaugh next? How about Elisabeth Hasselbeck? How many right-wing armchair tough-guys (and [...]
[...] Conservative Radio Host Gets Waterboarded To Prove It's Not Torture; Lasts 6 Seconds The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... Is Fatbaugh next? How about Elisabeth Hasselbeck? How many right-wing armchair tough-guys (and [...]
[...] Conservative Radio Host Gets Waterboarded To Prove It's Not Torture; Lasts 6 Seconds The Raw Story Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its to... Is Fatbaugh next? How about Elisabeth Hasselbeck? How many right-wing armchair tough-guys (and [...]
[...] it looks like they just pour water on you... is that it? What does it do that is so painful? http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/con...-waterboarded/ __________________ MB: Gigabyte P35-DS3L CPU: Core 2 Duo E6550 @3.5hz GPU: PNY GeForce 8800 GT [...]
[...] Radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture Quote: [...]
[...] US Soldier. Watch To See How It Turned Out [video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujv-x6wGoGA Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture [...]
farang and everyone who says there is no debate
you crack me up saying there is no debate, like everything is settled just because you say it is. I'm not so arrogant to think that my opinion is fact, but I am sure in this much: this IS a debate. like it or not.
there is no debate about the acceleration of gravity on earth. but there is a debate about gravity. what is the fundamental particle of physics that causes objects with mass to attract each other? you know? me neither? but there is s huge debate about it in the physics community right now. the hadron collider was going to shed some light on the debate, but it's been our of commission for a while. so, there is no debate about ripping off fingernails. it is torture. And there is no debate about the acceleration of gravity on earth. It is about 9.8m/s^2. But there is a debate about OUR version of waterboarding (not the Japanese version -- stop beating that horse after I shot down that argument several times) as it pertains to torture, just as there is about the finer physical aspects of gravity.
So if you want to call me an idiot for debating gravity, it doesn't make me an idiot. It just exposes your relative ignorance about the unknown aspects of a known phenomenon. Why is the universe expanding at an accelerating rate, farang? That's a nice quesiton to start your debate on gravity. Analogously, why do we waterboard our own troops but not burn their eyeballs? Sound like the beginning of a DEBATE?
Mikey, by saying that our 'form' of waterboarding isn't torture is not only ignorant, but bullshit. That, sport, is your opinion, not fact.
So I guess the military, intelligence, and legal experts, the Geneva Conventions, and the U.N. Convention Against Torture, which St. Ronny signed back in the 80's, all of which explicitly say that waterboarding is torture, are full of shit.
LOL - You show me EXACTLY where military, intelligence, and legal experts, as well as the Geneva Conventions, and the U.N. Convention Against Torture, states that "only certain degrees of waterboarding is torture."
There is no debate, fool - waterboarding, regardless of your silly 'degrees', is still torture.
veronica (can't seem to make your name 'cutsie' like you did with mikey...maybe 'vero'? that, i believe is some version of 'truth' in latin, so i am surprised that you don't live up to your namesake in a debate)
vero,
when did I say that it was a FACT that our form of WB is not torture? my whole point was that you people are pretending that your opinions about WB are facts, and I have made it very clear that I am just continuing the debate. you look silly when you say things like 'sport' and then clearly expose your inability to decipher my point.
you can call me a fool. you can LOL after refuting a claim I never made. but you cannot pretend that there is no debate on one of the most hotly debated issues right now. BTW, our current attorney general, and Obama appointee, says WB is not torture. I'm not saying I agree with him, just that you two would surely have a DEBATE. pax
LMAO!, Oh, Mikey!
I'm not stating that my opinions about waterboarding are facts, but military, intelligence, and legal experts have stated - ad nauseum - that waterboarding is torture ... and that is FACT.
Dude, you really need to step away from the crackpipe or the bottle ... Eric Holder specifically stated that waterboarding is torture! A FACT which can easily be found should be choose to use the googles on the internet tubes ... "WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder ruled out the use of "waterboarding" as an interrogation technique for terrorism suspects on Monday, calling it a form of torture that the Obama administration could never condone."
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE5213OE20090302
LOL - you can't even get that simple FACT straight, which gives me good reason to not take you seriously.
Now, go get your plastic sheeting and duct tape. Go hide under your bed, you little fearful fool ... you don't want those terraists to find you and decapitate you ... LMAO!
P.S. - Vero? Uh, no. I will give you an D+ for effort, though.
Mike, yuu are still debating whether waterboarding is torture? Well, go ahead. however, why don't you do this based on a little more evidence. I have no problem with you doing as suggested earlier and having your friends waterboard YOU as described. You may use a feather bed if you are uncomfortable with concrete, but you MUST have your head tilted downwards. minor or major tilt not important. Also, we WOULD like to have video of said experiment as I don't think anyone on this post really likes you. You would still debate whether or not we breathe air or is it nothingness we breate.Yes, you are that kind of annoying idiot who does these things, not out of scientific curiosity, but our of pure stupidity. In short, you've proven yourself a douchebag by more than a reasonable doubt.
vero,
that is a good cutsie name for you. it is a play on the latin derivation of your name, and as long as you continue to refuse to admit that there is a debate, i use it with detached bemusement at your inability to effectively search for truth, which is your namesake. thanks for the D+, though. That's a pass in my book.
yeah, I had the holder story wrong. he said it is torture. I can't debate that fact. so you two would not have a debate about torture. but many would debate you, and that is my point. saying there is no debate about something that is currently being debated just exposes your arrogance.
and btw "but military, intelligence, and legal experts have stated - ad nauseum - that waterboarding is torture ... and that is FACT." is not an argument. who are these experts? I can cite experts who do not think it is torture. so the fact that 'experts' on both sides disagree, but your own standards, makes this a DEBATE.
and as far as 'intelligence experts' the CIA doesn't consider our form of WB torture. read the bradbury memo. pax
Mike, quoting the CIA on morality or legal issues is hilarious! This is the same agency the FBI said that was our greatest domestic terror threat. The same CIA that was caught red-handed in the act of being the world's largest cocaine cartel in Iran/Contra hearings and just crashed a plane not long ago in the yucaton which was filled with cocaine. The same CIA which has been implicated in drug smuggling during the Vietnam War, and also the war in Afghanistan. This is the source you use? Please, why not ask the mafia if prostitution is illegal? Or Al Capone if alcohol is really alcohol? Like I said earlier, the real debate could be solved in your stupid little internal world if you would just go and waterboard yourself. Please get video as I think most of us would have no problem with you having yourself waterboarded. Please do it SERE style with NO cow to throw. If you have nothing of intelligence to debate other than the ignorant varients of someone's username on an internet posting, why not just admit you are an idiot and shut the fuck up?
Oh yes, this is the same CIA that supplied the C4 for the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing. Great agency choice. Which one is next? the Nazi party?
Jim I know that I can't have a debate with you. You are way volatile and that's fine with me because that's your choice. I am sure Veronica can respond for her(or him)self as she seems quite capable of expressing her opinion. As for the variants of the usernames, she started it. Why don't you go after her? naaaaaaaah
All I'm saying to her is that there IS a debate, and she has her experts and I have mine. Saying there is no debate on the issue does not settle the matter. That is about the only intelligent thing anyone is saying on this blog, btw, so I will continue to have intelligent debate with vero whether you like it or not.
vero thinks I am scared berocause I want to know about something before making a decision. perhaps she is better suited to have a conversation with you, an ovbious ideologue, although her rhetoric is much more toned down than yours. For now, I will continue to debate her, but if her rhetoric approaches your hate-mongering, I'll just stop with her as I did with you. pax
Mikey:
If that's what gets you through your miserable life, go for it, sparky.
LOL - There is no debate. I do search for truth, such as when I just bitch-slapped your punk-ass for your lie that Holder doesn't think waterboarding is torture.
I do appreciate, and just giggle my ass off, at how you show your blinding ignorance but completely discounting the military, intelligence (and no, Steve Bradbury, one of Uncurious George's legal hacks does NOT count as an intelligence expert , fuck, he's not even a legal expert- LMAO!), and legal experts explicitly state that waterboarding is torture. Okay, but, for shits & giggles (and because it's so much fun bitch-slapping you republicunts), allow me to provide you with some statements by those who know better:
Congressional testimony by Ali Soufan - FBI Senior Agent, interrogated Abu Zubaydah:
"Soufan told lawmakers that he and fellow agents went "by the book" and gained actionable intelligence from Zubaydah by standard "informed interrogation" methods. Later, when the CIA's privately contracted interrogators took over the questioning, using techniques such as waterboarding, or controlled drowning, Zubaydah "shut down" and stopped giving good information, Soufan said."
Senator John McCain, subjected to torture during Vietnam War:
"Credit where credit is due. Sen. John McCain on Fox News this morning said, in no uncertain terms, that waterboarding is undoubtedly torture. Reacting to the fact that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times, McCain had this to say: One is too much. Waterboarding is torture, period. I can assure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us."
http://www.librarygrape.com/2009/04/mccain-unequivocally-says-that.html
Tom Ridge, former Secretary, Homeland Security Dept:
WASHINGTON — The first secretary of the Homeland Security Department says waterboarding is torture.
"There's just no doubt in my mind — under any set of rules — waterboarding is torture," Tom Ridge said Friday in an interview with the Associated Press. Ridge had offered the same opinion earlier in the day to members of the American Bar Association at a homeland security conference.
"One of America's greatest strengths is the soft power of our value system and how we treat prisoners of war, and we don't torture," Ridge said in the interview. Ridge was secretary of the Homeland Security Department between 2003 and 2005. "And I believe, unlike others in the administration, that waterboarding was, is — and will always be — torture. That's a simple statement."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323968,00.html
The American Bar Association:
"SAN FRANCISCO -- The American Bar Assn. voted Monday to urge Congress to override a Bush administration order authorizing the CIA to use interrogation techniques such as waterboarding, and sensory and sleep deprivation.
The first resolution dealt with an executive order the Bush administration adopted last month allowing the CIA to use "enhanced" methods of questioning. Barbara Berger Opotowsky, executive director of the New York City Bar Assn., said the order was clearly "inconsistent with U.S. obligations" under Article 3 of the Geneva Convention, which requires humane treatment of detainees.
"The use of official cruelty has repeatedly been shown to be far from the best means of extracting truthful information," said Opotowsky, who proposed the resolution. She noted that a U.S. Army field manual on intelligence interrogations issued last September barred the controversial interrogation techniques that will be available to the CIA.
"Unfortunately, the executive order sets a lower standard for the CIA," she said."
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/14/nation/na-aba14
Sorry, sport. But I tend to believe those who do the actual interrogating, as well as those who have been tortured, and those who know the law, before I take the word of the chickenhawks on the rabid and ridiculous right.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104125189
You have no experts. Only criminals who are ducking for cover. There is no debate from any expert source. The CIA and Cheney do not qualify as expert. They are dong what is known as covering their asses. Why anyone would want to align themselves with both those proven criminal and incompetent groups is beyond me. Perhaps you are just too stupid to know better. After all, you are both too stupid to get that Waterboarding is torture and too pussified to try it on yourself. The debate over usernames that you have with Veronica is as indicative of your idiocy as anything else. You thinking you have a debate is akin to someone thinking masturbation is sex. Whack off all you want, you still have yet to generate a coherent thought.
Mike, we are all calling you a fool because every single statement you make begs us to point out such an obvious fact.
wonderful argument, Jim. Cheney is a criminal. Great argument. I guess I am a fool.
I know I said you aren't worth it and that I would not argue with you, but sometimes you say something that is so far out there that begs me to point out that one has to be an extremist to agree with you.
Cheney is a criminal. I think I will go over just a few things that make that perfectly clear as to why that fuckwad should be shot for treason:
1 - Shortly before 9/11 Bush administration changed NORADs procedures so that the shooting down of hijacked aircraft required exeutive permission. i.e., the president or the highest ranking if he were available would have to approve this measure. A measure that had previously never exhibited any problems. On 9/11 Bush was unavailable, and Cheney was in charge. he was approached several times on the need to shoot down the planes and he refused to allow them to do so each and every time. In fact, he seemed pissed according to witnesses that he was being asked again. Hey, it was only 3,000 american lives that died on that day. Not to mention the thousands more from all the health complications later and ongoing to this date.
2 - During the occupation of Iraq, Halliburton was given a non-competitive, no bid, cost-plus contract. The nature of such a contract is such that it is unheralded, this due to it's inherent ability to abuse such power. Said company (this is not a complete list, but an expample of their abuse) had 63 out of 67 water treatment plants which supplied American troops with water to shower that did not work. Said water was thoroughly infested with typhoid, malaria, and a host of other diseases. Also, said company did the electrical work in the showers which resulting in the electrocution of soldiers due to shoddy work. Also, examples of their waste include only this example, but there are literally hundreds to follow: Tractor-trailers (costing approx $70,000 USD) were not fitted with spare tires and when the tires blew out, the trucks were burnt. This a result of cost-plus and why it is not used until the Cheney criminal. Also, this was HIS company, a company whose stock value increased 4x as a result of their incompetence. The charges against Halliburton? Last week we gave them a bonus for their fine work. Do I need to go on? I could go on for days on Cheney and why he is a war criminal.
straight up wrong on both points. it was bush who was approached. you have been had by the conspiracy theorists.
as for halliburton. what does cheney have to do with KBR's showers? was he the CEO of HAL at that time or VP? And it was not a no-bid contract. BJ, Schlumberger, Fluor, and Baker all put in bids. sorry to give you an update from the real world.
and what happened to halliburton's competitor's stock price over the same period.
BJ, Baker, Schlumberger. Oh that's right. Same performance or better. You really need to get off the conspiracy.
Mike, you are such an idiot. Bush was reading to school kids. The only info he had was after it happened when he was told about it. Then the dumbfuck (and he is a dumbfuck) stayed for another twenty minutes. of course, he himself said he saw the first one on tv, which was impossible, but he is too incompetent to know what he is talking about anyway. That was also his admission on knowing what the fuck was going on. What he saw on tv. His words. Cheney was the one approached, testimony given on that subject. Cheney left Haliburton as CEO. For anyone that has ever studied politics political positions are based on which companies are the ones controlling our government. AFter all, we are a fascist state. His contacts and friends were all in Halliburton. It smacks of corruption. A corruption that is evident in anything that criminal is connected to. But of course, you still don't think waterboarding is torture. Yet, you won't do it to yourself. Should we call you hannity? You seem just that type of pussy retard to me.
Veronica, you rock! However, you must rememer this dip mike believes Cheney and the CIA are the only credible sources. How stupid can one person be? lol
OK i'm done. You are apparently incapable of having a debate without calling me an idiot or a pussy retard. And this is about Cheney being a war criminal, something about which you will admit there is a debate. There is no moral outrage excuse for calling me an idiot and a retard this time. You are just angry. Your argument 'it smacks of corruption' does not hold water.
And Jim, "Contempt is the feeling that you have for those whose arguments you cannot refute."
vero
"LOL - There is no debate. I do search for truth, such as when I just bitch-slapped your punk-ass for your lie that Holder doesn't think waterboarding is torture."
Yes. I was wrong about holder. It was not a lie, though. I was off on which AG I was reading about. But I might point out that you calling that a bitch-slap only exposes your shallowness. And my concession highlights my reasonableness as a debater, in stark contrast to you, my lady.
Thanks for those sources and quotes. But I know men who have been through it and say it is not torture. So, like I said, you have your experts, I have mine. You took a lot of time to list the arguments of those who agree with you. But that doesn't mean there is no debate, when just as many people are on the other side. And are you really LYAO, or do you just like chat-speak?
mike, you were done a long time ago. All you've shown is that my accusations are correct. The arguments I presented do hold water. Just not with idiots who don;t believe that waterboarding is torture. REgardless of the mountains of evidence presented. Also mike, contempt is also a well-deserved emotion towards those of incredibly low morals and intelligence. A combination which neo-cons have in abundance. You are done, because there was never a debate in the world of intelligent people. Only in those of low moral charachter and low intelligence and obviously the uninformed and uneducated. Now, go and waterboard yourself if you are not convince, hannity.
Mike, you do not know anyone who has been through it and said it was not torture. They are either lying or were to incompetent to know how to instruct their drunken frat brothers how to do it correctly.
did you look up halliburton's performance over that time period relative to their competitors? call me all the names you want, but that doesn't change the fact that I have decimated your points about halliburton. decimated.
and i do know people who have been through it. straight up.
For someone who is done, you sure keep yapping stupidities. Haliburton's stock is a matter of public record. Also, all of the atrocities I mentioned. Research them, but please don't ask haliburton if they did wrong. Which is the equivelant of your previous argument on waterboarding. You really do deserve being called a pussy retard. For we shall know thee by your deeds. I think the deed of espousing torture says a lot about you. Fucktard.
Haliburton's stock is a matter of public record
and it's performance relative to its competitors refutes your earlier point.
A 4x increase and you don't get it yet? What a fucktard. Do you know how phenomenal a growth that is? No. And why? Because you are someone so idiotic they argue the morality of torture, apologize for war criminals, and think that a complete reversal of national policy in the direction towards the dark ages (or the dawn of waterboarding. Tired of being a jew? Come to our friendly religious belief changing center! Waterboard you for 30 seconds and you are now a christian!). And for anyone to believe that you know someone who has been waterboarded after listening to all your drivel and unintelligable musings is quite laughable. Perhaps had you taken a stance which would encourage anything you say to be believeable, but here you are; still arguing that you were right after admitting defeat. I think you've proved my point in that you are a pussy retard. Not the nicest thing to say to someone, but in your case it is merely accurate. To lie is not my style, and you are seriously mentally impaired as your arguments prove. Go back to the rock you crawled out from under please. You said you were done, not be done and be gone!
4x increase for its competitors. sorry, but you can't win this round
i was done, but you are beyond crazy, and i feel that i could be of some help. you see, my arguments are based on evidence, while yours are based on conspiracy theories, which distort facts. you are angry and I am not, and you are irrational, whereas I am rational. I am leading by example, so even though I said i was done, i feel that I am preventing homicide by keeping you in front of your computer. and I did not admit defeat. I said I was wrong about holder. and don't tell me who I know and don't know. it reinforces the vibe you give off that you know everything. like I said earlier, you have a god complex.
you never answered my question. what do KBR's showers have to do with th VP?
mike calling an idiot like you an idiot is not a sign of mental illness. Being well-adjusted to a sick society is not a sign of mental health. To refrain from pointing out your obvious douchebag qualities would be remiss in my duties. Now, since you are done, how come you have had so many posts since you've been done? Could it be because you are a douchebag? I think so! Not to mention a pussy retard. How many times do you have to admit that torture is wrong? You are a douchebag no matter the name. Fucking retarded neo-con apologists. Go away since you are done! Go away! No one cares of your bullshit. You said you were done, so why are you still arguing? Because you are a douchebag.
because you need me, Jim. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but it is my duty to help you.
by the way douchebag mike, since you were done so many posts ago, what I do is open up the email, and when i see your name I don't read it anymore, i just come over here to call you a douchebag. Why? because you said you were done, and yet you still keep yakking. I no longer have any idea of what you are spewing, it must all be nonsense as everything you've spouted before has been. You are done. Those were your words. Like most neo-cons, apparantly you were lying then. I, however, only have one thing to say to you: douchebag fucktard
i was done, but I changed my mind because keeping you at the computer protects the lives of innocent americans. that's how crazy you are.
once again, I just see the name mike and I must come over here and say I htought you were done! Douchebag.
surely you can read the first line of my posts. I WAS DONE BUT KEEPING YOU AT THIS IS LESS TIME THAT YOU ARE TERRORIZING PEOPLE WITH YOUR EXTREMISM
Once again, I see your name as author and don't bother reading any more. After allm, you are DONE! In your words, you are done. Yet, you seem to be more prolific in your scribblings. What a fucking douchebag fucktard. What part of go away don't you get? After all, you said you were done a dozen posts ago. Why do you htink I don't read your comments, just see your name as author, and come here and call you a douchebag? Because you are a fucktard douchebag. Since I won't read your ravings, and since you have said you were done, then why won't you just go like you said you would? Why? Because you are a fucktard douchebag.
Because you need help. And because keeping you on this post keeps you off the streets.
it's mike
what's up?
And yet again, I see you flooding the internet with more of your ramblings. As I've stated for the last half-dozen posts, since you've said you were done, and you still haven't left, I will only read your name and then come over here to call you a fucktard douchebag until you finally do as you said and just fucking leave! Go home! You are a fucktard douchebag. Get used to it. But get used to it all by yourself. Away from everyone else. Nobody likes a fucktard douchebag, so just go fuck yourself Or better yet, waterboard yourself. What a fucking fucktard douchebag.
i want to see how long you keep this up. you are working way harder than i am
Who can beleve this shit? What part of done doesn't mean done? Yet, you seem to talk more shit since you've quit than before. Who gives a fuck about whatever you are saying/ You are a fucktard douchebag who has something to say to someone who merely wants you to have a fucking coronary and just goddamn die allready!
And yet again? What a fucktard douchebag.
And again? What a fucktard douchebag.
just curious how many angry rants you have in you. i am getting the poison out
mike,
You say waterboarding as torture is up to debate, yet you're not really debating; when evidence is lacking, you say "show me the evidence," but when evidence is submitted, you dismiss it as insufficient with no real consideration. You accuse others of stooping to insults and swearing, yet you largely respond with passive-aggressive"holier than thou"-type remarks.
Your flawed opinion on what constitutes torture is tainting your entire debate on the subject of waterboarding. Your major arguments thus far center on waterboarding not harming someone physically (which it can, actually), and on us submitting our own soldiers to it.
To the first, I repeat what I said in 478: Psychological and emotional damage is also significant. If waterboarding forces someone to endure extreme psychological stress and terror (which is fact, not opinion), and if it causes long-term trauma and emotional scarring (fact again), IT IS TORTURE.
To the second, the subjecting of U.S. soldiers to waterboarding is much like the police making recruits take a taser hit - so they really understand what they're doing to people. Apparently to develop some kind of empathy for their intended targets, although I honestly don't see evidence that it actually accomplishes that... Besides, the super hard-core military organizations (SERE, etc) who do this aren't doing it because it's NOT torture; they do it because it can give the soldiers an experience of torture WITHOUT actually damaging them physically. If there were some way to burn out their eyes and instantly replace them so no "harm" was done in the end, I'm guessing they would add that to the roster too (maybe they'll figure out some super-realistic VR simulation one day? Gotta love the government...)
Finally, I ask again - If it's not torture, then what's the point of it? To make a prisoner a little uncomfortable and annoyed? "Oh no! Not a slight bit of water in my mouth! I'll tell you anything!!!!" Honestly. If it weren't a torturous experience, why the hell would it even be used?
I really don't know what sort of evidence would sway your EXTREMELY strong opinion that waterboarding isn't torture. You claim that you can be swayed if the right evidence comes along... Well what will it take? A 20-page dissertation complete with a bibliography? If that's the sort of thing you require, you'd best look outside of a forum like this.
only passive aggressive now that jim is being ridiculuous. before not passive aggressive at all. was being aggressive aggressive and providing evidence. my points are all here in the blog. apparently you have only read the past several posts, which I admit were childish, but mainly just mocking jim. to say I provided no evidence is just a waste of energy.
What type of thing would so eagerly venture into an arena in which no one would listen to it, no one wants it there, and said arena such a thing had already determined it would leave? An arena in which this thing would know beyond reaonable doubt that only obsceneties would be hurled at it, without it's words being listened to at all. What type of thing? A sad, and pathetic shell of a thing. I think you shall be known to all as fucktard douchebag. Please, take a personality course, after many years of study you could meet a member of the sex and species that you are interested in and actually have the possiblitity of getting laid. Untill then, you just venture into an arean in which your words remain unheard, and only obsceneties hurled, in great disgusting clumps, at your specific direction. And why should this happen to you? Because you insist that you need our disgust. And so, as the old saying goes, Ask, and you shall receive: You fucktard douchebag.
Fucktard douchebag, once again you insist on abue. You fucktard douchebag.
Aww, someone besides the thing whose name is no longer mike. Alderpax, the SEREcourse doesn't submit it's subjects to waterboarding so they may do it to others, it is done so they will know of their treatment and of some methods they may do to prevent them from giving up data. Also, it apparantly has another effect. Jesse Ventura and his team all made a pact to not be captured. This was in no small part due to the impact of waterboarding upon them. But, of course Jesse is a wimp and wouldn' t know torture if it hit him in the head. As it did.
Fucktard douchebag, once again your pathetic alias has come across begging to be insulted. As you so obviously desire. You fucktard douchebag.
mike,
You provided evidence that waterboarding as currently practiced by the U.S. is different from more severe forms practiced by other nations at other times. You also provided evidence that it's less severe than what Mancow subjected himself to. I don't even debate this. I'm sure it's absolutely correct. But my point (and that of others here) is that the difference doesn't disqualify it as torture.
Your entire case seems to revolve around torture being something that causes severe physical pain and/or damage; anything else isn't torture at all, in your eyes. That seems to be the true debate, here - what's the definition of torture? Are you willing to accept that extreme, prolonged, emotional/psychological trauma is torturous? If so, then it follows that when deliberately forced on someone by another person, such trauma fits the definition of torture. Others here have cited various people who have undergone waterboarding and stated that it's torture. A man even posted here with his own personal account and confirmed that it's indeed torture. Yet you steadfastly stick to your guns. As Jim said, the only real evidence left is personal experience. So although it wouldn't be wise, getting waterboarded yourself is the only thing that will ever settle the issue for you, it seems.
As for Jim's aggressive approach, I agree it's a bit off-putting. But I've read his posts, and there's a lot of solid stuff alongside all the name-calling and personal attacks (in most of his posts, at least). It may be hard to see sometimes, unfortunately, since the angry ranting stuff is so extreme. But he is making actual points. The problem seems to be that you and Jim are like oil and water. He's coming from a very emotional perspective, and you're coming from a totally intellectual one. He sees you as "heartless," and you see him as "crazy." You both process things differently and see the other one's way as wrong. True, Jim could redirect his anger and not attack other posters. But he doesn't. And based on his replies to your requests that he tone it down, I'm guessing he never will. No need to keep taking it personally; it's just how he's wired. So maybe if you stopped focusing on his attitude and stuck to his points, you might have an actual discussion and he might not get so pissed off. Or maybe not. But it's worth a shot, right?
this 'thing' is an animal that has an amazingly audacious trait...
when attacked, it defends itself!
oh my god, or as you would prefer
oh my jim lunsford
fucktard douchebag, you are back. despite having said you were done. Alderpax, douchebag is a self-admitted lost cause as he has admitted he was wrong until you paid him attention. Apparantly, some pathetic attention defieciency in it's childhood. Facts don't sway beasts. fucktard douchebag is here to prove it is a fucktard douchebag who said it was done, and yet limps along because it desires more abuse hurled upon it. What a sad and pathetic thing fucktard douchebag is. Lost, and still defending it's position that it is morally justifiable to be a beast. Pathetic these neo-cons be.
541 Jim,
So it's done to make torture by the enemy more endurable, because the soldiers know what to expect? That makes sense. And it proves even more that waterboarding is torture, and we are a sick nation for practicing it. Of course, we'd be a sick nation even without waterboarding, since we also use far more severe torture methods. Not to mention every other greedy, psychopathic act our government commits.
please, alderpax... I have been talking to his points in addition to his 'tude. don't come at me with this self-appointed arbitrator 'holier than thou' perspective when it is that transparent.
read my posts. i reply to his arguments. take the last one about halliburton. and yes, there is a lot of solid stuff in what he says, but there is also a lot of conspiracy theory nutjob stuff.
and I am not approaching this from a purely intellectual perspective. i am against torture and i am morally outraged at the rendition program started under clinton, for example, where we outsource torture. i just happen to agree with the CIA that our form of WB does not shock the conscience and is probably not torture. my arguments for that are all over this post.
and it's not that jim and i are oil and water. jim and regular people in regular society are oil and water.
545 Jim,
Yes, I have noticed mike say a few times that he's done, so I don't get why he keeps coming back. He said he defends himself when attacked, but his frustration at being attacked is what keeps making him say "I'm done" in the first place. It's a vicious cycle, I guess. It's what happens when you take this stuff too personally.
i've said i'm done several times yes. for the day. today was the first time when i said i was done and then changed my mind. i just couldn't fathom that someone could take this as seriously as Jim, and for a while there I was getting long diatribes from Jim simply by posting. So yes, I changed my mind today. Is that all you got? But now I actually have to go, so i'm done. Have fun with that. I guess that makes me a coward, Jim? peace
Torture is still Illegal under US Federal Law. Obama Must Enforce Federal Law!
Read our Federal Torture Law http://tinyurl.com/besdd3
Would you support Torture after being forced to watch your wife or daughter
being tortured?
We must persuade Obama to tell AG Holder to appoint a Special Prosecutor.
We also need to make Congress start a Congressional Commission on Torture and other Bush Administration crimes.
If you do nothing else for your Country today,
SIGN THE PETITION To Prosecute Them For Torture
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
Over 250,000 have signed
Join them and call yourself a Patriot
.
fucktard douchebag, I can't believe you can't get enough abuse! Don't you get attention at home? School? friends? Or do you have any of these? You said you were done, now please be done and seek medical help for your condidtion of requiring any attention at all, be it healthy, or the type of attention you get from people like me who despise fucktard douchebags who just won't go away, regardless of how they say they will What a fucktard douchebag.
Alderpax, yes he is quite the mental case. I would never understand such a profile, but that would be me. I prefer to cultivate other aspects of my nature. I certainly don't seek out venues that would only serve to further deginerate my self-esteem. there really is no telling with these sick things as it. I find it difficult to call them human, for to be human is to say one has a spine.
mike,
I did read every post here, but over the course of a few days. So I should've gone back and re-read. I have noticed you refuting certain points Jim has made, although dismissing some as "conspiracy theory nut-job stuff" seems to come more from bias than evidence. I agree you've made it clear that you're against torture, something Jim doesn't seem to understand. You are right that many things have gray areas and are open to debate. But despite all of your arguments, the one thing that keeps bothering me is that you draw a clear line of distinction between physical torture and psychological, saying that the latter doesn't seem to be torture at all. Which to me contradicts what you say about gray areas, because it seems like very black-and-white thinking.
I have no personal beef with you, as I hope you can tell. I'm just bothered by the degree of feuding between you and Jim. It's become personal on both sides, and the actual point has been lost. Maybe it's time to just agree to disagree with his extremely emotional attitude and move on. Not necessarily out of this forum, but at least move on from interacting with Jim.
Jim,
I think that mike is so severely intellectual in his approach that he seems cold and heartless to you, but he has said that he's against torture and feels outraged over it. So you and he probably agree more than you think. He won't concede that waterboarding is torture because he claims he hasn't seen good enough evidence. I don't think we can help him there, because we've given him plenty. At least plenty for a discussion forum like this. If mike wants to see undeniable evidence, maybe he needs to read some articles or watch some videos. I dunno. Or maybe nothing would change his position except being waterboarded himself. If that's the case, then this whole "debate" thing is pretty pointless. So I hope he really is done, because there's really nothing more he can get from this forum.
Alderpax, I think that fucktard douchebag is not so much intellectual as it is dissocciative. Not much intellectualism or even academic work on it's argument. The dissocciative aspects are also noted by it's extreme passive rage and it's constant need for attention, any attention will do. None of these traits are commonly associated with intellecualis, more often they are merely signs of severe emotional trauma as a child. Me? I'm just not that fucking sensitive. Most paratroopers aren't. No apologies from me on that, I never sold out my honor, my oath, nor will I debase myself to the level of my opponents. The high ground is not just for the physical terrain, it is for all the fields of combat. Peace, Jim
Jim (and mike, if you're still reading),
Another thing I don't understand is that mike feels that the debate is open about waterboarding being torture, yet he insists on picking one side. He's mentioned before about playing devil's advocate, so maybe he's not as devoted to his position as he appears. But I would think if he's seeking the truth he would leave it an open question, not go "I say waterboarding probably isn't torture - now prove me wrong." As far as picking one side over the other, if he isn't sure then the SAFE side would be to say waterboarding IS torture until proven otherwise, not the other way around. Plus, taking the CIA's word over the word of those who have personally BEEN waterboarded is pretty goofy...
Alderpax, that was douchebags later argument. In the beginning it was an argument that it felt was "cute" and "intellectual" in debating over whether it was torture. Later, it took the cia position completely over all other evidence to the contrary. That would be the side of someone defending the technique over a simple debate. It is pro-torture and the psychological profile of it's low self-esteem (as noted by it's continued re-entrance into an arean it knows full well will result in its words being ignored, and only insults heaped upon it) seem to be common denominators with the Pro-torture, or shall I say the pro-barbarism crowd. Peace, Jim
Newsflash, Mikey - You're not debating. The only evidence you've provided to back up your argument is a memo from Steve Bradbury, which, considering the source, I do not take seriously. No one with an ounce of humanity takes seriously.
I've provided just a few of an abudance of evidence that clearly states waterboarding is torture; I've provided evidence that does not base the severity of waterboarding with 'degree's'. And, as I stated on an earlier post, our laws, the Geneva Conventions, the U.N. Convention Against Torture, and a whole of host of international laws do NOT stipulate 'degree's' in which waterboarding is torture. Each and every law, act, treaty, et. al explictly states waterboarding - that's it, just the word waterboarding. Not severity by degree's, such as 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree - LEGAL; 4th degree - ILLEGAL. LOL. I can't help but laugh at the silliness of it!
Sorry to disappoint you but, I do have other things to do than respond to you; and yes, I did take time to do some research - it's called educating myself. It's called ensuring that I have the evidence to back up my argument. Isn't that the very foundation of debating? That one must make damned sure they have the facts to back up their arguments? Consider my part of the debate completed. You, on the otherhand, fall far short in your argument.
Sure, I know of two people who have been waterboarded, one in particular, was Navy SEAL. Both have stated that there is no such thing as "legal" and "illegal" waterboarding, no levels or degrees, just waterboarding, plain and simple ... and it is torture. However, just because I know two individuals subjected to torture as part of their training (not how to do it correctly to other people, as you seem to think, but to prepare these individuals for situations in which they may find themselves), I certainly don't expect anyone to believe me without providing verifiable evidence, so, I listed a host of testimonies, opinions, and facts, from those who do the actual interrogations, to soldier's who themselves have been tortured, to legal experts who know the law. That's how I operate. But, you seem to think that hearsay is an acceptable of evidence - well, I can safely say that hearsay wouldn't fly in a court of law; when it comes to situations as serious as torture, it doesn't fly with me, either.
I'm done with you educating you, Mr. Man. It's high time you learned to educate yourself, instead of swallowing the swill rammed down your throat by the rapid and ridiculous right.
i'm back. i know you all missed me.
1.) I am not dissociative. I have nothing in my past I want to forget. wrong
2.) I do not get off on being ridiculed. You disagree with me. That is fine. This has nothing to do with attention.
3.) Jim. You take the high road in no way. You missed most of my points, and I never tried to be cute or intellectual. i was debating, contrary to what vero says.
4.) Veronica, nice try. Arrogant rambling does not fly with me. I know a SEAL who says it's not torture. And I provided more evidence and argument than just bradbury. You ever heard of a thought experiment? We are not in court, and the thought experiments I was trying to lead everyone through were valid arguments. Thought experiments comparing WB to burning, for example. I'll try another on you. Is WB torture if the flow rate of water is one drip per hour? No, b/c breathing is not impaired. What if the water is sprayed like a fire hose? Yes, because no breathing is possible. What if the flow rate is somewhere in between? Grey area, honey. I hope that didn't hurt. Sorry to 'educate' you, but you'll have to deal with fact that the argument I just made is pretty hard to refute. Geneva says torture is illegal, and I'm down with Geneva. But that's not really the argument. So you spent lots of time researching something that we already agree on. Thanks, sweetie.
5.) Alderpax. Thanks for trying. Jim and I are recalcitrant folks. I guarantee you that I just like to debate. Unlike what Jim thinks, I have no depraved psychological motivation for continuing this DEBATE. But you are also right that neither Jim not I will come to common ground, and that our posts are becoming increasingly personal. There is really no point in continuing with him. And you are also right that the main thing we (Jim and I) disagree on (other than how to treat other people with whom we happen to disagree) is if our version of WB is torture. And to tell you the truth, I am still on the fence, though if the flow rate is kept safe it is hard to argue that it is torture. I do see your point when you urge me to assume it is torture when in doubt to be SAFE, and it is hard to argue against that. pax
So...who are you libs going to blame the next time thousands of Americans are killed on our soil by terrorists?
So facts are arrogant ramblings ... oh, that's right. Now I remember the kind of mental giant I'm dealing with. Anything factual, and above the level of a second grader is beyond your scope, as well as the nimrods like you. You provided bupkus, nothing, nada, with the exception of a 'legal' analysis written by one of Bush's flunkies. LOL. Yup, that's great proof you've got there! Oh, so you say you know a Navy SEAL - well, I'm next in line for the Throne of England. I can say a lot of shit, doesn't mean it's true. And, you keep saying you're 'debating.' As I already pointed out to you, hearsay is not 'debate' material; facts, and statistics are. When debating it is wise to have the facts to back up your argument, which you have failed to do. Miserably, I might add.
As far as your cute, yet useless, experiment - it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that torture, including waterboarding, is illegal. I will ask you again - where, exactly, does it say in our laws, the Geneva Conventions, and every other anti-torture law and treaty in existence that there are varying 'degrees' of waterboarding; where, exactly, do these laws and treaties state that some forms of waterboarding are legal, and others are not. However, you won't because you can't. There is no such animal. No grey areas, fruit loop - simply black and white - waterboarding is torture and it is illegal. Therefore, I refute your very weak, and very lame attempt at spinning this as a 'grey area' issue.
"Honey"? "Sweetie"? Ah, yes. I was waiting for the knuckle-dragging Neanderthal in you to come out. I have found over my lifetime that guys like you are usually the coward with the biggest mouth in the crowd, but when confronted, start to backpedal furiously (watch it, you might run into something) . It's either that or the fake bravado is a cover for a small penis. I suspect you suffer from both. Gee, I bet you're just a hit with the ladies ... oh, and I'm not impressed by your pseudo-intellect ... yawn.
I spent time proving to you that waterboarding, regardless of your silly degrees, is torture, and is illegal. All you've proven is what an arrogant, yet blissfully ignorant tool you are.
Veronica, having renamed the loser you refer to as fucktard douchebag, I would like to point out that he is seriously in need of mental health. He absoklutely only logs on for his well deserved bashing from me, and as part of his hourly "not done" though it had given up hours ago. It needs lots of attention, healthy or not, to feel as if it is actually alive. It is one of those unfortunate sub-humans who were oviously traumatized as a infant, as a youth, and now, as it's version of adulthood. It is both sad, and pathetic that it keeps coming back with it's weak and dysfunctional plea of debate, a debate that seems as if it remains as weak as before. Back when I used to read its words beyond the author's name. Now, I just see mike, and think fucktard douchebag, one of the biggest losers on the net. A true deserving sub-human not quite willing to admit torture is torture, but definitely not willing to try it outself for itself. Another hannity, if you would. Something not quite human, in morality, mentality, or any other -ality you might wish to use. Stomp on this cockroach of a being, as they only breed more of their kind. Plus, ti feels really good when you do. Peace, Jim
TO ALL;
Good evening--I have been out living a real life and have just returned. LOL!!!
I have just been reading down the comments, trying to catch up, and have noticed a few points which I feel should be pointed out.
1) Debating torture could be equated to debating being "a little" pregnant.
2) It would seem someone has confused the terms competitor and subsidiary.
3) Just how could one adjust the flow rate of electricity so as to induce pain and be safe enough to not stop your heart.?
4) I also "know a Navy SEAL".
I had four of them work for my company for several years. We supplied personal security for some high valued clients world wide. I myself was "involved" with Navel Intell. I say this just to give you some idea of my background when I tell you under no circumstance is any form or degree of WB "not" torture. Period--end of debate. This is based upon first hand experience and facts, not some intellectual pie in the sky opinion. I hope this will help to clear up some of the confusion which seems to have crept into several of these postings.
For me, it was always the wrong debate to have whether water boarding was torture or not. Of course it's torture. There are endless amounts of ways to torture someone, however, and in my mind, the debate should have always been, is this form of torture "better" than other forms of torture?
Now, most people on this board would probably give a knee-jerk response to that question. "Torture is f*cking torture you a**hole.* But I would disagree with that. Strongly.
First of all, some journalists and other inquiring minds felt that they needed to go "find out" for themselves whether waterboarding was torture or not. No one needs to go have their fingernails ripped out, or have pins shoved under their fingernails to know whether those things are torture.
For instance, If you read the memos, you'd see that they exploited their fear of insects. How did they do this? They stuck a caterpillar in a cell with Abu Zubaydah, someone who helped plan 9/11. I think it's safe to say we all know an older brother who has done this to his little sister (probably with a "nastier" insect) while she shrieked in absolute horror.
The difference between coercion and torture is the bottom line, but it’s been obscured in the public conversation. An interrogator is allowed to tell a detainee (facing a serious enough charge) that if he does not cooperate he will never see the child his new wife is expecting - no first steps, no first words, not a single loving smile from what will forever remain his only child, his only legacy on this earth. He will receive the death penalty or a life sentence, without parole, to be served far from home. The interrogator can do all this, complete with photographs of the family in question.
But he can't he put a caterpillar in the cell?
Is the fear of never seeing your family again more or less meaningful than a fear of butterfly larvae? The threat of losing your family - or your status, your job, your freedom - are powerful psychological inductions to talk. Waterboarding threatens a detainee with losing... nothing. It's based on a subconscious reaction to having water in your nasal passage.
Yet you can tell a detainee that his wife may be forced to turn to prostitution to support herself when her husband never returns. It's true. Is that torture? You aren't doing anything to anybody - you're just describing the actual fate the detainee may condemn his family to if he decides not to cooperate.
And let me see if I follow the logic here.
1) Torture is NEVER justified. Not even against those who have committed acts of terror.
2) Waterboarding is torture.
3) Cheney, Rush, Hannity, Bush, etc. should all be waterboarded.
Ok...
For me, much of this debate is focused on the wrong things. I don't think my argument is a "conservative" argument, but I do think most liberals commenting on this issue tend to be as one dimensional and shallow in thought as those they claim to criticize.
mike and D Diamond,
I guess at heart it's an ethics issue. We can debate forever on whether or not waterboarding is torture, what degree of torture it is, what "torture" even means, etc. But in the end, it's still a cruel practice that doesn't even accomplish its supposed goal - to learn valuable information. The same goes for all varieties of threats, intimidation, and other mind-games which may or may not qualify as "torture." The only info that comes out of these acts is whatever the torturer wants to hear. And even IF these practices produced genuine info, so what? Slimy, mafiso-style tactics isn't what we're supposed to be about. I'm not naive, though - I know that pretty much IS what we're about. But that doesn't make it all fine and dandy.
As for tortured prisoners "deserving it," or the argument that they do worse things to us so we shouldn't care about them -
A. Most of these tortured prisoners are NOT the same people beheading Americans. Often they're even just ordinary civilians.
B. The assertion that what they do to us is worse than what we do to them is a bit laughable, all things considered. They're not acting much better, granted. But definitely not worse. Plus we're the ones who invaded their country. And in case you want to bring up 9/11, there's no evidence linking it to Iraq. And even if there were, the thousands of Iraqi civilians we've killed had nothing to do with 9/11 in any way. The government invaded Iraq for its own gain, not some Holy Crusade on Terror. It's shocking that so many actually buy the idea that raining death and destruction (and TERROR) down on our "enemies" will somehow lead to eliminating those same concepts from the world. So either our government is composed of total morons or eliminating terror is NOT their actual goal. It's like trying to eliminate rape by sending an army of government-trained rapists to find and rape all rapists, every member of the rapists' families, and everybody the rapists have ever talked to (just for good measure). I mean, duh...
C. Much of current Iraqi hatred of America is a REACTION to what we've done to them - including, but not limited to, torture. According to them, we deserve what they do to us because we've done worse to them. Sound familiar? The cycle of war, hatred, and giving the "enemy" what they "deserve" will continue forever if something doesn't change. Meaning, of course, that it will continue until humanity is erased from the planet., since we'll probably never actually change our behavior.
D Diamond
So, a rather long-winded comment to come to the conclusion that apples aren't oranges, pigs aren't fleas, and coercion isn't torture.
Nice try.
Waterboarding is still torture, set in law. For a long time.
But you want to attempt, rather weakly and at an level a 6th grader would find clever I might add, to add non-torture coercion into the mix, as if that is relevant to the issue at hand : Waterboarding is torture.
And D Diamond,
Unfortunately for your incorrect assertion that waterboarded torture victims "lose...nothing", there are recorded cases of death resulting in it.
Again, a nice try .....for a 6th grader.
And no, you have no idea who planned 9/11/01: You're on the wrong track.
Torturing anyone only results in getting them to "confess" what you want to hear. And that is ALL it does.
I tire of listening to those wishing to disgrace my country with their filthy rationalizations. Like you.
As well as those torturing foreigners to fulfill their sociopathic needs. They need to see the inside of a cell, and never leave. And we'll start with those that ordered it first.
vero you're delusional. rather than respond to my argument you get personal. and then call me a coward. i like it. i say sweetie b/c you're not debating. you're emotionally railing against my backed-up points, an act worthy of the mild denigration that is calling a woman 'sweetie.'