Unless you're a fan of willful ignorance, you know all about the four Bush administration torture memos released Thursday by the Justice Department. Those memos revealed Bush lawyers authorized the use of insects in interrogations, among other shocking and disturbing strategies for getting detainees to talk.
But perhaps more shocking than these newly revealed torture methods is a memo's reference to the fact that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (still in U.S. custody) was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah (the man who allegedly fears insects) was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.
This insane frequency would seem to make (even more) self-evident the fact that waterboarding is not an effective anti-terror tool. Putting aside the moral and legal outrages for a moment, these statistics do not show waterboarding to be the ace in the hole "enhanced" technique Bush et al. claimed it was. Quite the opposite.
Firedoglake zeroes in on this startling detail:
On page 37 of the OLC memo, in a passage discussing the differences between SERE techniques and the torture used with detainees, the memo explains:
The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.
Note, the information comes from the CIA IG report which, in the case of Abu Zubaydah, is based on having viewed the torture tapes as well as other materials. So this is presumably a number that was once backed up by video evidence.
Over at Washington Monthly, Steve Benen parses these new hyper-waterboarding stats nicely:
For years, one of the unfortunate aspects of the "debate" over abusive interrogation policies is the concerns surrounding practicality -- as if torture would we justifiable, if we knew with some certainty that it would produce the results (i.e., useful intelligence) we wanted...
Now, we've known for quite some that the argument is not only morally bankrupt, it's also wrong. Torture "works" by compelling the abused to say what he/she thinks his/her captors want to hear.
And the KSM example seems to put the practical question to rest altogether. If waterboarding was an effective torture technique, why on earth did officials feel the need to administer it 183 times on one individual? What kind of sadist thinks, "We didn't get the information we wanted after torturing him 182 times, but maybe once more will do the trick"?
–Jeremy Gantz
wow! 183 times in a month? the poor tortured son of a bitch must have looked like a 'wrinkled up prune' after being exposed to all those 'drownings' in a month, don't you think?
this is pretty disgusting shit. we knew the AL-CIA-DA was out of control and completely above the law, but this means that we have no hope of ever regaining a democratic republic here if we don't disband them and put to death, as is totally called for here, all of those who performed these acts on detainees.
this is it folks. either this nation stands for RULE OF LAW, or it does not.
you decide. otherwise, it's "last person out turn the fucking lights out, it's OVER WITH HERE..."
Massive demonstrations is the only way to force our government to investigate these crimes. None of the established Democratic groups will do it. Will MoveOn step forward?
What do you think waterboarding really is.?
Please watch this video before you comment:
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/kaj-larsen-waterboarding-p1.php
This memo reveals that this prisoner was exposed to this technique 6 times a day.
We all have to make up our own minds as to whether ANY HUMAN BEING should be treated like this.
Prosecute every single culprit from the CIA operatives that administered the torture all the way up to Cheney and Bush. There are some culpable democrats too. Prosecute them all. Restore the Constitution.
Here's a crazy question -- if torture works, why would you have to do it almost 200 times and take a month to get what you're looking for?
Man, that "ticking time bomb" scenario's looking even sillier now. Who sets the timer for 744 hours?
Among other things worth investigating, the question arises whether torture was applied to try to get false information on purpose.
Cool torture video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcl-uofCzRc
And for so many years, we Americans put up a stink all over the world about human rights and how people should be treated in other countries. And our presidents made a point of Human Rights with China. Then Bush and Cheney came along with their goon squad. It's sickening.
Why won't they prosecute? Because it is the thread, when pulled that will unravel the sweater. Our government is imperial, and immoral.
I am glad to see some other Americans calling for a total and immediate investigation. I agree that we the people will have to force it, because Congress and the White House want to apologize and 'make it go away.'
I have read the memos, and they are startling in their use of "reason" and "logic" for monsterous ends. Furthermore, it is clear in the memos that the so-called CIA black sites in Eastern Europe and other places we simply an attempt to get around UN treaty provisions that ban torture under a country's "jurisdiction," which these memos define as a state's ability to make and enforce laws. IE: The CIA cannot make laws in Poland or Pakistan. I am pretty sure that was the purpose of those CIA sites, compared to say the Guantanamo Bay prison camp, which is clearly under U.S. "jurisdiction" and so subject to treaties banning torture.
The memos also make clear that the entire torture program authorized here originated out of the SERE army survival training program, which is meant to teach U.S. soldiers to withstand torture. How ironic. In addition, these memos also provide evidence that U.S. medical and pyschological professionals were not just aiding the CIA torturers, (as The New Yorker already has reported since 2005), but were at the heart and soul of the program from design to implementation. Why do I say this? The memos often refer to them page after page.
Secondly and most importantly in terms of these memos' legal reasoning, the torture was designed--according to the legal logic in these memos--to create "fear" of harm and abuse, more than physical harm and abuse. To get that "fear" result, the torture techniques used a psychologically designed program with fake walls, fake drowing, fake killer insects, and real nudity, sleep deprevation, and emaciation, though not below a "1,000 calorie" per day diet. In the legal reasoning of these three memos, "fear" of harm does not fall under U.S. law or international treaties, because the legal language there prohibits actual physical harm only, actually "severe" harm or "imminent death," but not "fear" of death. This logic is repeated again and again throughout these memos.
Lastly, these memos indicate the serious bankruptcy of our society, which the so-called "Justice Dept." with all those Yale and Harvard graduates and "great" legal minds are total monsters or cowards. Their facility with language and so-called reasoning nonwithstanding, these memos are a testiment of baseness beyond the pale, that truly "shock the conscience," just to use some Supreme Court language these memos quote as making them liable under U.S. law. The Guantanamo Bay program--if ever exposed fully and truly prosecuted--will equal the Nazi medical experiments in all its horror and lack of evolution.
Thank you so much Rawstory for being an outlet for real news, for posting the full memos, and for allowing comments.
Tough guy!
I am talking about this CIA agent. Very commited to the Service, or he must have been a real waterboarding fan!
I love it when people (Jimbo) call for the government to investigate itself on matters like this. Sure. Criminals should be allowed to investigate themselves. What a joke. Actually, that's exactly what happens. In this case, their official 9/11 conspiracy theory is "proven" because of the "confessions" provided by "enhanced interrogation techniques". There's your investigation. Be happy with it. Accept it as truth because your government loves you and always tells the truth.
[...] This insane frequency would seem to make (even more) self-evident the fact that waterboarding is not an effective anti-terror tool. Putting aside the moral and legal outrages for a moment, these statistics do not show waterboarding to be the ace in the hole “enhanced” technique Bush et al. claimed it was. Quite the opposite. Read full article »» [...]
Thinking outside the box. They , the bush regime, tortured to make sure none of these people would remember that they were hired by the bush regime to do the dirty work...it's all a farce.
Inside job... hired to work for bush and cheney and the other scum.
[...] Raw Story [...]
How come ONLY Lyndie England and other "bad apples" were prosecuted for torture?? When will the rest of those cretins get what they deserve? Why is Obama protecting these sleaze-bags? Is he a sleaze-bag too?
[...] waterboarded Al Qaeda suspect 183 times in 1 month, memo [...]
If you'd like to learn more about the longstanding zany international hijinks and adventure of those playful fun-loving pranksters over at the CIA, drink this in:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CIACoupsofTerrorism
The fun just never stops.
The United States of America is now officially dead and has gone to hell.
Saving Western civilization from teh savages, are we?
Anyone with any shame would have already committed seppuku.
Cheney? Rummy? Take yr punishment like a man. As if you were one.
Thanks;
More real leaks please.
(not the garbage they wanted us to read)
.
AMERICA...
... A NATION OF HYPOCRITES!
.
Where does it actually say "183 times in one month"?
DEMONSTRATIONS ARE USELESS!
The only way to make a point against the corporatist state is for prolonged sabotage.
America; Most of you are a; sad, hypocritical, dumb, confused , self indulgent, self opinionated, self rightous collection of warmongering , thieves, killers and sadists. Even your TV programs are just sick and full of crass hypocritical propoganda. Not wastng any more time on you with this comment, go torture somone ,Mr. 'No Change Obama" and fall for the lies of 911.
This guy was water boarded so many times yet they believed him when he said he masterminded 9/11?
He tells them inbetween dunkings that The Cavemen Did It" and his torturers are like "hey that's the ticket"?
Nope. That is bullshit.
oh holy fuck this is fucking ri god damned diculous. thats like 6 times a fucking day, what the fuck?
the dudes who did this must have had some serious psychological scars. ... i have no doub t that some reporter ccan track down one of the less-willing torturers and get all the gory fucking details ... this is fucking ridiculous.
there are some bush crew who will never be able to set foot outside the US for fear of being arrested. . . good thing they didnt torture any israelis or mossad might kidnap them. (then again the CIA kidnapped people from italy so...)
this is just enough... something has to be done.. this shit is just fucking wrong.
What precise information did these loathsome activities yield? How many disasters did they avert? Where is the beef?
well, you see, the first 182 times didn't get us the info we wanted him to provide us. this prisoner was a little slow in figuring out what we wanted to hear. AND these first attempts were performed by rather inexperienced nat'l guardsmen and women fresh from their manufacturing jobs at wendy's and dominos, who had not received proper waterboarding training nor their doj approved, illustrated - for the reading impaired - CIA torture manuals.
recall - obama
2009 - 2009
Based on this, then the Nuremberg trials were illegal because the Sonderkommandos or Nazi guards in camps were only following orders and should not have been held accountable.
This Al-Qaeda 'suspect' is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Learn something about him. I personally think he should be tortured given his status in Al-Qaeda.
TORTURE WORK SO WELL THAT NONE OF THE SO CALL "AL QAEDA" PRISONER TOLD WHERE BIN LADEN WAS....WHAT A JOKE !
WAKE UP PEOPLE YOUR GOVERNMENT LIED ABOUT 9/11 AND WHO IS REALLY BEHIND IT, DO YOUR HOME WORK INSTEAD OF WATCHING GARBAGE NEWS ON TV.
IT IS A VERY WELL KNOWN FACT THAT WATER BOARDING WAS THE NAZI FAVORITE METHOD OF INTERROGATION ON JEWS, AND FRENCH RESISTANT. BUT AGAIN WHAT CAN WE EXPECT FROM AN AGENCY (C I A) CREATED IN 1947 WITH THE HELP OF FORMER NAZI AS PAID CONSULTANTS LIKE
Dr GHELEN
GOOGLE "OPERATION PAPER CLIP" AND FIND OUT NAZI / CIA CONNECTION.
IGNORANT LIKE MIKKKE IS SO NAIVE AND BRAINWASHED BY OUR GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED PRESS THAT HE BELIEVE THAT THE EVIL "ARABS" FROM AL QAEDA ARE OUT TO KILL INNOCENT AMERICANS, THEREFORE IT IS OK TO EXTERMINATE THEM (WE HEARD THAT IN THE PAST )
OF COURSE HE FORGOT THE TIME OF "DUCK AND COVER" TO AVOID THE BIG FLASH FROM A "COMMUNIST" NUKE ATTACK (WHICH NEVER HAPPENED BUT WAS FOR SURE A BONANZA FOR THE WEAPON INDUSTRY)
THAT IS HOW GOVERNMENT MANIPULATE PEOPLE IN ACCEPTING TORTURE, CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND EXTERMINATION , ALWAYS USING FALSE FLAG ATTACK PRETENDING BEING ATTACKED FIRST THEN BRING "NEW POLICIES" TO OVERRIDE THE CONSTITUTION ...FOR SECURITY REASON.
...FIRST IT IS FOR THE "EVIL" ENNEMY (ARABS IN THIS CASE) ONLY !
THEN FOR THE "ENNEMY OF THE STATE" OF COURSE THE STATE DECIDE WHO IS THE ENNEMY (USUALLY ANY OPPONENT)....AND THEN WE ALL KNOW WHAT IS COMING : FASCISM
AISSIE YOU ARE SO RIGHT !
OBAMA LIKE BUSH AND McCAIN ARE JUST PUPPETS , FRONT MEN WHO WERE CHOSEN BY THE RULING ELITE (THE REAL UN ELECTED U S GOVERNMENT, CENTRAL BANKERS WHO MAKE THE FASCISTS POLICIES NO MATTER WHO IS ELECTED, SAME FOR UK AND FRANCE GORDON BROWN AND SARKOZY SERVE THEIR CENTRAL BANKERS CONTROLLED BY THE ROTHSCHILDS)
NOW THEIR STYLE ARE DIFFERENT OBAMA IS DOING DIFFERENT "WINDOW DRESSING" THAT McCAIN WOULD HAVE DONE BUT THE BOTTOM LINE POLICIES DO NOT CHANGE, THE GOAL : "NEW WORLD ORDER"
ONE WORLD CURRENCY, ONE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS GLOBAL FASCISM, CREATED OUT OF MAJOR "STAGED CRISIS" LIKE A NEW VERSION OF THE "GREAT DEPRESSION" FOLLOWED BY A MAJOR WAR POSSIBLY STARTED BY A "STAGED " NUCLEAR 9/11 STICKING IT ON IRAN...
THESE RULERS WERE SMART ENOUTH TO PUT A BLACK FACE ON THEIR "NEW WORLD ORDER" AND THE NAIVE MASSES TIRED OF 8 YEARS OF THE NEO FASCIST BUSH WHO HAVE NO CLUE, THINK THAT OBAMA IS BRINGING "PEACE" AND "CHANGE"
JUST LOOK AT YOUR SINGLE DOLLAR BILL ON THE BOTTOM OF THE PYRAMID
YOU CAN READ IN LATIN " NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" SINCE 1933 TRANSLATED IN ENGLISH IT MEANS : "NEW WORLD ORDER" WAKE UP!
THE FEDERAL RESERVE HOLD OUR GOVERNMENT BY THE BALLS AND YOU ARE THEIR SERVANTS WITHOUT KNOWING IT...
For all you torture supporters out there, if you really want to defend our country, remember--TORTURE DOESN'T WORK--you get nothing but junk. Numerous people who have actually interrogated suspects confirm that persistent, intelligent questioning, developing relationships, works better.
Look up al-Qaeda suspect al-Libi, and the false testimony he gave after the CIA turned him over to the Egyptians--it was junk both Bush and Powell quoted to frighten our country into a needless, financially and morally ruinous war.
183 times and still standing
mooking your judges in that kangoroo court
i am sure those sadist that did the torture are all dead probably hung/ blown their heads off chicken shit yankee doodle trailer park trash
brother k s m you are my man
still strong keep you head high
[...] 20 April, 2009 — RickB Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (still in U.S. custody) was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah (the man who [...]
this revelation obliterates the official 9/11 story-- we can't trust anything the Bush admin and CIA monsters tell us about terrorism.
Meanwhile, the White House announces that Obama will go to Langley to "reassure" the CIA he won't prosecute.
"This is a time for reflection, not retribution" says the former Harvard law professor. I wonder what law they teach at Harvard these days?
But the best part? I can't comment there (no comments so far) on the Raw Story article posting, because it says I have to LOG IN to comment!
Since when, and why not here??? Where's the "log in/sign in" box?????
but torture works! right?!
not ONE piece of actionable intel, not ONE credible "threat" found, not ONE life saved from all that pain and misery caused.. and that is from the CIA, the people who caused the misery, that said "meh, nothing gained".
This country is now Nazi Germany, it seems.
Time for all good people to flee and find homes in civilized nations that care about the rule of law and human rights. America is a psychotic joke now.
We must end the 2 party system if there is any hope of ending the march to fascism. In spite of overwhelming evidence, the Dems are completely complicit and have shown zero intent to investigate or prosecute. Obama has repeatedly said that there will be no investigation, trials or prosecution for those who tortured or for those who authorized torture. If both the Republicans and Dems support fascism, what other recourse do we have other than to demonstrate in large numbers and to vote 3 party candidates!
[...] http://rawstory.com [...]
[...] many times do you suppose a mistake can be made before it’s recognized as such? In 2003, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who remains in US [...]
[...] ace in the hole "enhanced" technique Bush et al. claimed it was. Quite the opposite. / taken from The Raw Story » CIA waterboarded Al Qaeda suspect 183 times in 1 month, memo reveals / it was one of the phrases Leave a Reply [...]
[...] CIA Waterboarded Al Qaeda Suspect 183 Times in 1 Month, Memo Reveals - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (still in U.S. custody) was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah (the man who allegedly fears insects) was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002. [...]
[...] The Raw Story » CIA waterboarded Al Qaeda suspect 183 times in 1 month, memo reveals. [...]
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[...] CIA waterboarded Al Qaeda suspect 183 times in 1 month, memo reveals (Raw Story) [...]
I have been searching for this information and finally found it. Thanks!
[...] has now been revealed that terror suspect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August [...]
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So it took the US government EIGHT YEARS to beat a confession out of a suspect held without charge?Lou Wallace is smiling up at us with pride...