Pathetic. Makes you wonder how the police ever survived these "violent encounters" before they had tasers huh? Let's see, tasering children, tasering people in wheelchairs, tasering people at a routine traffic stop for not furnishing their drivers license quick enough or tasering them for talking back, tasering completely unarmed elderly people?

Does anyone else see a problem here?

Really? You wonder how the police ever survived these "violent encounters" before they had tasers. Huh? you add. Really? You're really wondering that. Uh, huh... :-(

Well, here's what happened: Batons or flashlights to heads, arms wrenched out of sockets or broken. Uppercuts to the gut. Sleeper holds (that often stopped someone's heart).

So... wonder no longer.

Hell, I worked in the mental health field for years, and I have had to subdue people of every age range, size, and level of agitation. Never had to use a tazer, and never caused a significant injury.

It is definitely possible to do, if you have the will.

Talk of what you know, not what you think...

Thanks davewft. Seriously. I've always wished I knew more (less damaging) ways for both self-defense and keeping someone from self-harm. Nice to know there are ways.

Good man!

But the question was "what did cops do before tasers." What is not? Not what dave did.

Which I feel I answered accurately. So why the attitude?

Well, allenallen is correct that many routine and minor incidents DID end up with excessive force and injury and even death (LAPD in the 80's comes to mind) but NOT because they NEEDED to (davewtf knows how to do it) but because they WANTED TO and were hyper-aggresive and slightly insane.

A 'sleeper hold" or rear naked choke for those of you who are not fans of entertainment wrestling does not stop the heart. It temporarily stops blood flow to the brain but has no direct impact on your heart.

Anything else you care to add Mr. Self Defense?

LOL.

Thanks for that illumination Mr. Science.

and... your point is what?

It is not supposed to stop the heart. I said it 'often' does. So you can go back to compiling your dictionary.

Oh wait, are you one of those people who only read 'always' and 'never?'

Often is now always. Be sure to include that... see, they are not even spelled the same: Often.... always. See the difference?

Often is subjective. From news stories over the years, I've read about a police application of a sleeper hold result in a death "too often."

My "too often" may not be your "too often."

And I said "it NEVER does" Mr. WWF

LOL, You said that... where? Do you even know what you are upset or arguing about?

Keep trying... I mean... why not just look this stuff up? Wikipedia or this for example:

Death from law enforcement neck holds
Reay, Donald T. M.D.; Eisele, John W. M.D.

Abstract

We report two deaths which resulted from the use of neck holds by law enforcement officers. The mechanisms of death are discussed in addition to an assessment of the use of neck holds by law enforcement personnel. The hazards of neck holds are emphasized and we review those conditions where there is an increased risk for a fatal outcome when the neck hold is used.

http://journals.lww.com/amjforensicmedicine/Abs...

Darrell L. Ross, Theodore C. Chan (eds): Sudden Deaths in Custody
Humana Press, Totowa, NJ, 2006
Journal Forensic Science, Medicine, and Pathology
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m0458505423...

The lateral vascular neck restraint (also called sleeper hold) was once a widely taught blood choke in law enforcement, and was performed from behind by putting an arm around the neck with the crook of the elbow over the midline of the neck. By pinching the arm together while assisting with the free hand, the carotid arteries and jugular veins were compressed on both sides of the neck. This hold did not put any pressure on the airway, but an improperly applied hold could quickly turn into an air choke if the person being strangled resisted the hold by attempting to turn around.[7]

Due to risks of fatal injuries, all American law enforcement agencies discourage, restrict, or forbid its use. The Los Angeles Police Department, for example, prohibited its officers from using air chokes and restricted use of the carotid hold to instances where death or serious bodily injury was threatened, after routinely using chokeholds for many years.[8]

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZrADAAAAMBAJ&p...

allenallen, not even you could be this incompetent. I specifically said that a rear naked choke or sleeper hold as you prefer cuts off blood flow to the brain and does not "directly" affect the heart.

You come back to support your statement by quoting in part (the carotid arteries and jugular veins were compressed on both sides of the neck) something precisely supporting my argument.

Now find me an article of this choke hold stopping the heart or stand corrected.

In the hands of a logheaded po-leece officer in the O'Zarks who was trained to do it with weariung his vest, Sam black, gear, pistole, badge, ribbons of honor, etc.
Cops lack grey area recognition. This hold is dangerous in their 'hands'.
'Nuff said!
.

Such a hold is dangerous in anyone's hands, even professional martial artists.

You cannot lose consciousness without running considerable health risk and killing brain cells.

I am not advocating the use of choke holds on children by any means. I was correcting allenallen when he claimed that the "sleeper hold" stops the heart. It doesn't stop the heart it stops blood flow to the brain, which could eventually stop the heart but it would be a very long choke hold if so.

allenallen, how tall were these officers who used 'uppercuts to the gut" - 2 foot - 2'-6" ?

LOL....

Way to pick out the important ideas.

I'm sorry but it's official... you're a dope. :-)

See "How to throw an uppercut to the body"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7xwjyFRE5s

But... having no little experience (unfortunately) I'll play along:
...when your arm is hanging at your side, is your fist below your stomach, or are your arms 2'-6" or less long?

The uppercut is powerful becuse it uses the shoulder rotation plus the bicep. The jab or straight punch uses the tricep, which is a) normally weaker in most people) and b) hard to explain but you are pushing horizontally against your virticle stance. Wereas when using an upthusting punch (shortening the bicep) you have more leverage because the force is more upward and your bracing is down to the floorboards.

Think of the amount of force you can create by pushing against a wall (you push yourself away from the wall). Then think of the greater amount of force if you pushed up on a door knob (you're pushing the soles of your feet into the floor).

Now... I know what you're thinking... the stomach of your opponent seems straight out to you. If, however you take a step forward (or back) bending the knees somewhat and bring the fist UP into someone's stomach, although that seems to you to be a vertical target on the surface, your fist will push the plane of the skin surface and jam whatever you hit, in an upward direction.

That is rather devastating. I've seen people totally incapacitated -- dropped like a rock --with such a strike. Plus you don't risk breaking your hand on their hard head.

Or, if you can google it. ;-) Try ehow:

"Throwing an uppercut is like curling your arm to pick up a bucket of water. You need to keep your arm curled and elbow bent to hold that weight." -Joe Guson, pro boxing trainer

I know how to throw an uppercut but have never heard of any police force utilizing it as a take-down technique.

Now find a video on a haymaker and explain what advantage the uppercut would have over a haymaker punch?(The most frequent and effective cause of a one-punch knockout or kill)

Look axekick you called me ignorant for saying "uppercut to the body" I patiently showed you that you were incorrect. Now Man Up and say "thank you."

I love the smell of blood in the morning... toothless, inbred redneck blood. It appears allen that even after your very patient attempt to educate this fruicake he still missed the bus. Good try mate, very enlightened and informed and you have one hell of a lot more patience than I do.

Its even better when accompanied by the blood-splatter and humor generated by this WWW nutjob as he self-destructs in exchange for the attention he so desperately needs. Thanks for the laugh!

Oh yeah, the tasering cops need to e shot - with good old fashioned lead.

Robert S. Finnegan
Southeastasia Independent Media
Jakarta, Indonesia
rsfinnehan@gmail.com

The tasering cop's need to be shot was exactly my point. It was allenallen who was defending the officers use of a taser on the ten year old child.

Just for further laughs, explain where I self-destructed (specifically and accurately) during this exchange?

No imbecile, you said "uppercut to the gut" at which time I questioned the height of the police officers who could throw uppecuts to the gut.

I know it can be done if you are bobbing and weaving and stooping but this isn't protocol for self defense combat techniques.

I was merely pointing out those who speak loudest and with the most fury are typically those lacking understanding of the subject at hand.