Dean says kill the Senate health bill: report

By Sahil Kapur
Tuesday, December 15th, 2009 -- 4:14 pm
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Update: Dean tells Good Morning America that he thinks health bill should be scrapped: Video at bottom

WASHINGTON -- deanheated Dean says kill the Senate health bill: reportFollowing the jettisoning of both the public option and the Medicare buy-in provision, one of the nation's leading progressive voices on health care reportedly said Tuesday that the Senate bill is no longer worth supporting.

"This is essentially the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate," former Gov. Howard Dean told political reporter Bob Kinzel of Vermont Public Radio. Kinzel relayed the news to The Plum Line's Greg Sargent, and the full VPR interview will air at 5:50 pm today.

"Honestly the best thing to do right now is kill the Senate bill, go back to the House, start the reconciliation process, where you only need 51 votes and it would be a much simpler bill," he said.

Dean has been an outspoken champion of the public insurance option, describing it as the central component of the legislation. A health care bill without it, he has said, is not worth supporting.

Story continues below...

Dean lifted the spirits of dismayed progressives after the public option was compromised in favor of the Medicare buy-in provision. He said last Wednesday that it was a "positive step forward," and that expanding existing government-run insurance programs can achieve the same goals of lowering premiums and extending coverage.

But now that the Medicare compromise has also been scrapped, Dean no longer thinks the bill will meet these goals. According to him, it's time for Democrats to pull the plug and start over using the parliamentary procedure known as reconciliation, through which a bill can be passed with a 51-vote majority.

While some progressives agree with Dean, others say the bill still improves the current system.

"The public option and its compromised iterations were a battle that came to seem like a war," Washington Post's Ezra Klein wrote on Wednesday. "But they weren't the war. The bill itself was."

"On its own terms, the bill is the most important social policy achievement since the Great Society. It will save a lot of lives and prevent a lot of suffering," he added.

"Political change isn't easy," wrote Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo. "It includes tons of reverses and inevitably involves not getting a lot of what you wanted, at least not at first... People don't agree on things. That's life. But that's different from cashing out of the process if you don't get just what you want."

"I understand that most of the liberal skepticism over the Senate bill is well intentioned," Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight wrote on Wednesday. "But it has become way, way off the mark."

Dean's declaration comes on the same day that President Obama gave a speech signaling that positive health reform will pass. Obama warned that inaction will create many more problems. "If we don't get this done, your premiums are guaranteed to go up," he said.

This video is from ABC's Good Morning America, broadcast Dec. 16, 2009.



Download video via RawReplay.com

"This a bigger bailout for the insurance industry than AIG," Dean told Good Morning America.

Excerpts from George Stephanopoulos' ABC News report:

"A very small number of people will get insurance, if at all, until 2014,” Dean told me this morning, “This is the insurance companies' dream, this bill.”

Dean argued health care reform is the victim of bad decisions in Washington.

“Bad decisions were made along the way,” Dean said on GMA, “Now we're in the last week of this. And this is the Washington scramble. And I think it's ill-advised.”

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Story comments are below...

  • flyboy66
    If the president signs this bill in it's current form he must be impeached for this will be a crime agains the American people.
  • Considering the constant internet pressure, media scrutiny and widespread public base necessity, healthcare reform isn't going to go away ... what we have now is a broken shell of a bill, worthy of being scrapped and rewritten from scratch to include a robust public option and to shift the legislation away from being a wealth transfer to insurance and pharma corporations ... the house is already on board with such a move, and the senate rules for reconciliation would only require a base majority of 51 votes ... healthcare reform isn't worth doing fast - its worth doing right ...
  • juey
    If you truly desire change and want to put an end to corporatist behaviour, then you must starve the beast of it's power: that means, stop driving, stop working and stop buying- boycott the American dream. As radical as this may seem, a strike is a line of demarcation which indicates that we are foolish to work for a system which does not work for us; likewise, our labor and consumption would cease to become the means by which we quietly consent towards our own imprisonment. Take a look at our history and you'll discover the thing which scares business the most is the capacity of the public to cease their participation- the proverbial wrench in the system. You may not have millions and you may not have connections but you are ultimately accountable to yourself. What can I say that Miles Davis hasn't- "The revolution will not be broadcast".
  • seen2much
    A national strike... I love it. Fight the beast by starving it of our blood... Problem is everybody is FAR too fat, dumb and happy to try that one yet.

    I still make enough to live well, but I and my family choose to live below the $25,000 line.
    We rarely buy food from the store, our farm produces over 85% of our food consumption.

    All of our savings are going into gold, silver, and ammunition. Buying precious metals is the ultimate short play in these times. A short I fear that will be terribly successful.

    I've gone back into a couple of old businesses I ran once before. They are being run with a mind of the times to come soon.

    We are not alone. The scarcity of available gold and silver bullion(I don't do IOU's, either I walk out with my metal, or I keep my dying cash.), and the still running shortages of ammunition speaks volumes of where many people stand on all of this.

    I've conducted an unusual amount of business lately via barter.

    People have asked to be paid in silver or gold and even ammunition for services.

    Everyone I know in the city who knows I have a farm have begged to be able to go to my farm if "Things get out of hand". I will have to make the heartbreaking decision to turn several of them away.

    Even those who usually can't be bothered with anything important are coming to me and saying: "Hey, I've heard you talk about the economy, and a bunch of the stuff you said would happen is now happening.. What's next?" To which I reply: "Everything I already said would happen, and the reason you are asking me again is because you know the answer is seriously bad news for you." They ask me what they can do about it. I tell them: "let go of that underwater mcmansion, live UNDER your means, use the savings to buy whatever gold and silver, buy a decent combat weapon, buy plenty of ammo, come out and train.

    Only 2 people out of the many I told this to have taken the necessary measures, they will not be among those turned away.

    They are the same two people I knew out of many back in 1999 who like I did cashed out their 401K's and bought plenty of gold at $295 an ounce, so they have learned to listen to what I have to say.

    I will not be hungry.
    I will not be cold.
    I will not be thirsty.
    I will not be defenseless.
    I will not be alone.

    Hope you have provided for the coming winter, even at this late hour, you still can save yourself and those you care about.

    Baa! BAAAAA! Little sheeple, have you any meat to pay the wolves?
  • “This is the insurance companies' dream, this bill.”

    That's really a template for pretty much all the legislation being passed these days:
    "This is the [800-hundred-pound-gorilla business sector of your choice]'s dream, this bill."

    We are fucked, America.
  • Fake Terrorist
    I'm looking at the ad above the comments section and it's from Abbott Labs - Big Pharma. It's ironic isn't it?

    The whole fake H1N1 flu scare propagated by the MSM was for the benefit of the pharmaceutical companies. Merck had a "hit squad" to destroy the reputation of any scientist that spoke out against Vioxx. The CDC covered up the thimerosal facts at Simpsonwood. And now a "Health Care Reform Act" this only helps Big Pharma. Sounds as Orwellian as "The Patriot Act" that steals the rights and freedoms true patriots died for. Obama, Bush, Clinton...different puppets same guys pulling the strings. Turn off dancing with the starts (and Keith Olberman too) and wake the "F" America.
  • Hologram5
    Dean is right on the money. They are hosing us so bad with this so called "Health reform" bill that it might as well not happen because it is a blank check for insurers. Just think people, they are going to fine you for not buying something that doesn't even equal "Health Coverage". Bullshit if you ask me.
  • Wolfsinger
    It is truly stunning to me that the President has failed to call out the blatant racism and derision coming by the truck load from the Christian values GOP right but has the audacity to have Gibbs call Howard Dean "irrational" over his legitimate objections to the piece of crap the President calls a Senate health care bill.

    The Presidents anger over Howard's and Sen. Sanders objections proves once again that the words he spoke on the campaign trail mean -nothing- to him as President. Once again, Progressives who put him in the White House seem to just be in his way.

    I expect to see more Bushian politics from this President.

    As a Progressive I have learned the hard way that while this President has failed tragically to act on his promises, those reasons we campaigned so hard are still valid and ultimately necessary for the health of the country. We will find and support a new standard bearer and best of all, if we stay focused on the process and the goals, we will win.
  • Nick
    Dean is walk and the President's talk.
    Why do we expect any kind of reform from Washington when it's Washington that needs reformed?
    What a disappointing year.
  • farang
    So Klein, Silver and Marshall think this bill is "not-so-bad."

    Here's an idea: Have Silver, Marshall and Klein explain why Israel has Universal Single Payer, but it isn't worth fighting over here.....I'd love to hear their rationale.
  • bascombe
    stephie is a tool, as usual, saying 'Obama says' rather than spouting a fact.
  • selindajensen
    Kill the bill. I am sooo disappointed. I wanted true health care reform. Do what you have to to make it right. If the dems can't pass health care reform. My vote counts or not.
  • BillyBuck
    I absolutely agree with Dean that the current legislation should be scrapped - even if it still contains beneficial measures.

    The reason is that once any bill is passed, the opposition will make it very difficult to ever visit reform.

    Witness McCain's attempt at campaign finance reform. His bill started out as something that might have been a landmark in US political history, and ended up so toothless that no one even remembers what it was supposed to do. Yet, its passage effectively silenced the calls for finance reform.

    Our system continues to give enormous "free speech" advantages to monied interests. We wound up with a health care bill that favors those interests and offers nothing to working people. Who's surprised by this?
  • Fodder
    They say that they'll 'go back and fix it later...'

    How's that going on Part D, Hmmm?

    I thought so.

    Bought and paid for. Every one of them.
  • Obi-jonKenobi
    i'm wondering what happened to the "trigger" - the stipulation that if the insurance/health care industry doesn't bring down costs within a specified time line, the public option will become law. And, that will be, hopefully, a much more robust form of the public option.

    I forgot which organization did the study, but the results were that we would be better off with a stronger public option down the road than the watered-down version then being proposed. Since then (last week) both the public option and the Medicare buy-in have disappeared. But, no mention of the "trigger" clause in all the recent discussion. That should be the fall-back position of the liberals - no bill without this final line of defense. If the free enterprise, competitive system can't do the job, they'll be finally pushed aside. If we have to hand them this giant gift from the taxpayers, let this be their absolute last chance.

    Ultimately, the Democrats are going to be held responsible if costs don't come down. If they can't get a bill now that has some chance of containing costs, at least they can position themselves for a serious reform later (if, in fact, they survive the well-oiled campaign to take them and their policies down and the possible negative results of this industry-friendly "reform".)
  • CAF
    This bill will pass because Obama and the Democrats in Congress want to say they passed health care reform. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is and that is the sad truth. Then it will go back to the House and then who knows what will happen? The House and Senate versions are so different from each other. I suspect that, in the end, it will do very little and cost very much. In short, the status quo will remain the same and the public will be the ones harmed. All politicians care about is getting elected.
  • Obi-jonKenobi
    i'm wondering what happened to the "trigger" - the stipulation that if the insurance/health care industry doesn't bring down costs within a specified time line, the public option will become law. And, that will be, hopefully, a much more robust form of the public option.

    I forgot which organization did the study, but the results were that we would be better off with a stronger public option down the road than the watered-down version then being proposed. Since then (last week) both the public option and the Medicare buy-in have disappeared. But, no mention of the "trigger" clause in all the recent discussion. That should be the fall-back position of the liberals - no bill without this final line of defense. If the free enterprise, competitive system can't do the job, they'll be finally pushed aside. If we have to hand them this giant gift from the taxpayers, let this be their absolute last chance.

    Ultimately, the Democrats are going to be held responsible if costs don't come down. If they can't get a bill now that has some chance of containing costs, at least they can position themselves for a serious reform later (if, in fact, they survive the well-oiled campaign to take them and their policies down and the possible negative results of this industry-friendly "reform".)
  • sundaize
    i was a lifelong republican as well as my wife. after 8 years of bush of whom i apologize for having vote for the first go around was sick and tired of the direction in which my govt is with endless fighting, torturing, wall st bailout, drug wars(fraud and failure, and lack of health care reform (sounds like im going liberal but im NOT, im going reality). Obama has been a total failure and a liar. i voted for him and ill be damned if i vote for that corporate whore again. hes a disgrace. as a matter of fact i have never ever been involved in bringing a political figure down but i and my wife and family and friends with whom would be considered conservative (not all conservatives ignorant and irrational) will fight to make sure he doesnt spend another four years in the whitehouse. what a complete and total failer with all of that hope bullshit. just another lying politician. i am madder than i have ever been and if i see the lobbyist get their way i will look to see revolution beginning. i have never seen such anger and corruption in my lifetime. its time for the american people to finally get a win. never thought id see the day that i would welcome the news that someone had gone after goldmans ceo or the leaders of the insurance and pharmaceutical industry, ect ect ect... taking it directily to them where they live. i have become a pacifist after the sickening of all the death and destruction and dont believe in violence anymore. either Jesus meant what he said or he was a fraud. Try reading the new testament and see where the justification of violence. there isnt. Jesus followers acted as he spoke and taught even to the point of prosecution (real prosecution, not the crap whined about today) and death. Christians of today are gutless, faithless, frauds. i have been as well. i know it would disappoint my lord for me to say this but those sons of bitches at the top need to fear the populist again. the time is now and they can be brought down from their high perch. Gandhi did it and so did martin Luther king. we can to. we can take this country back..Lord forgive me for my lack of faith and unrighteous livid anger. this health reform is pathetic..history will NOY bne kind to this generation of leaders as well as the followers..first time to ever post on any political site but was just about to explode.
  • doolindalton
    I think everybody is feeling the exact same way right now sundaize....at least I know I am. Your post touched me as it was so true and real. Not much of that left anymore either. I'm a registered Independent who has voted both sides of the ticket.....to no avail and I am beyond sick to death of ALL of them. Something is going to happen...I don't know what, but one thing I do know....it won't be pretty.
  • bayside1
    Every time you decide to support the bad because it's practical and doable, to the harm of the many, to benefit the select few, you need to hear no more. no damn more..You work for us.............Thank you Dr. Dean
  • Mark
    God bless Howard Dean for telling it like it is. I always liked that guy, now he reminds me why.
  • Westcoastliberal
    Look, we started with the hope of Single-Payer; that degraded to the so-called "Public" option (with triggers and all sorts of "gotcha's") that didn't suit, so the medicare opt-in (at a significant cost, $700 a month!). The point these guys are missing is...health insurance COSTS TOO MUCH! $20K for a family of 4 earning $60K? Are you kidding? This bill is garbage; throw it out!
  • roscoeman
    Howard, please run for president again. Bait and Switch Obama has sold us out and we need a progressive candidate.
  • starvapor
    Dean is absolutely correct....
    Why in the hell should the physical well being of our populace be held hostage by those who are paid by the insurance gods to assure that we all will have to continue to kneel and beg for our good health from these arrogant and pathetic greed-mongers that run the health insurance and pharmaceutical corporations?
  • Hologram5
    Kill the bill and vote out any and every encumbent trying to get re-elected. They are all worthless and don't give a rat's behind about any of us. All they care about is their kickbacks and paychecks from the lobbyists. All lobbyism should be made illegal and anyone taking money from them should be impeached from office as this is, for the most part, a bribe. Bribery is illegal in this country.
  • jimbeaux
    At first I couldn't understand why Obama didn't have Dean as part of his administration.

    Now with this joke of a health care bill & the senate against re-importing of Canadian drugs - I can see why.

    Dean tells it like it is !
  • matticusfinch
    PYYYYAAAAWWWW!!!!
  • shrapnel
    Why does Governor Dean look so scruffy. Hair not combed and what's with the jacket scrunched up round his neck. On Good Morning America this is NOT an accident.
  • DFW
    If you had had Howard's travel schedule of the last week, you'd look like that too!
  • Privae MORRIS!!!
    Without a Public Option or at least the Medicare expansion, the "Healthcare Reform" bill is garbage, pure and simple.
  • DownriverDem
    I disagree. Killing the bill will only hand the Repubs a big public relations win. I know many of you don't look at politics this way, but that is what the Repubs are praying for. It will be the best gift the Repubs could receive.

    Think about it!!!!!!!!
  • Sam
    Well who the hell cares what it hands the Repugs or what it looks like?

    You are so locked into that D and R brainwashing. You have this sports team mentality. That's exactly how you see this crap. This "my D team is better than your R team" and "my Dteam will not look as good as your R team" and "this will be a victory for the other team" and such drivel.

    It's long past time that people mature and get out of this damnable sports-team mentality. Both of these "teams" are scum and full of war criminals. People in this nation are hurting but yet you're worried about how something will LOOK or some IMPRESSION or IMAGE or APPEARANCE for some useless party of war criminals. Pathetic. Your mentality is part of the reason we are where we are today.

    Republicans and Democrats. Same Shit. Different Assholes.
  • StarVapor
    to DownriverDem...

    It took me less that a nano-second of thought to know that I don't really give a shit about the condition of anybody's "public relations" status when the physical health and well being of the populace continues to be at risk by us constantly having to kneel in front of the insurance gods and beg for mercy every time we need some medical attention.
  • lorn
    Well of course YOU would disagree. But in case you haven't noticed, this comment board is filled with actual American citizens who want health care, who deserve health care.
    You corporate Democrats do not give a fiddlers fuck about us people!
    You see every goddamned thing through the prism of D vs. R. Everything is a political football and amounts to nothing more than votes and PR wins. Fuck your filthy treasonous party and its fortunes! You and your kissing cousins the Republicans are criminals.

    This is about health care for human beings, it is not some silly game to us even though you see it that way. Think about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Private MORRIS!!!
    At this point it doesn't really matter. And who cares if the Dems get bad PR? For their corruption and incompetence they deserve it. But it definitely isn't worth the cost and complexity to our system to pass this farce just so Democrats can get some good PR.
  • hoosierdaddy
    Did you ever get a piece of software so gummed up in your PC that nothing you could do would fix it and everything you did do crapped up everything else. Usually, the easiest resolution is to reformat the hard drive and start fresh.
    Nothing in this bill is good for the consumers. We need a straight up public option, available to anyone who wants it.
  • hippie1367
    Since there is nothing in the bill to curtail costs why should I care...costs are going up wither way, and either way I can't afford it...the problem is I get penalized for not being rich. Fuck barack and anybody else who tries to shove this down my throat...as a lifelong dem, I know when I am getting stabbed in the back!
  • smallbear
    That's the real key here: controlling the costs. Nothing else in this bill does that like the public option or medicare for all would. Re-importing drugs (since they were already manufactured here) would have been a nice treat, but it isn't nearly enough.
  • jimbo701
    We can all complain about the GOP and the Democrats and threaten to vote for an independent, but the net result will be the same. Why? Because the REAL problem are the corporate lobbyists who funnel millions into congressional campaign coffers. Until the financial umbilical cord that connects K Street to Pennsylvania Ave is severed nothing will change and the general populace will be continue to be viewed as nothing more than something to extract money from in every way possible. This is a very serious issue. As it stands now, close to 70% of Americans want the public option. In a democracy, that should be enough to decide the issue. The fact that corporations are going to get what they want despite the will of the people is the strongest evidence yet that American democracy has morphed into a Corporatocrisy. This is dangerous because if the will of the people is consistently disregarded revolution becomes inevitable.
  • John Q Public
    Josh Marshall is 40, Nate Silver is 31, and Ezra Klein is just 25. If their various bios to be found around the web are accurate, they bring little more to the debate than being bloggers for a relatively few years each. I'm sorry, but while lazy thinkers on the left (and there are as many on the left as the right) are infatuated with them and a host of bloggers like them, and at this point they clearly have been seduced by the adulation into thinking they have far more to offer the world than others, these young punks don't demonstrate enough life experience to have the wisdom or credibility to be regarded as serious voices on whether this corrupted Senate bill is good public policy. It's become nothing more then corporate welfare for the insurance industry, it would not significantly improve the situation most Americans face in securing adequate health care. Guaranteed issue without regard for existing conditions simply means more will have insurance policies, simply means people and our country will be forced to give more of our money to an insurance industry that is at the root of the crisis we face.

    Forcing more people to buy more insurance from the insurance companies that they still will have to fight every step of the way to get to them to pay for medical services, as well as having to work to find doctors who will accept the insurance they have to see them as patients, is not reform. The political-maneuvering, inexperienced, buffoons like Marshall, Silver, and Klein too many on the left look to as "opinion leaders", and the lack of genuine effective political pressure their type of "opinion leadership" generates, demonstrate exactly why this reform has collapsed into such a fiasco.
  • thelonegunman
    i agree... the current bill isn't reform - its a massive giveaway to the insurance co's... courtesy of our agents of 'change' - the Dims...
  • jimbo701
    I was thinking the same thing yesterday. The bill is no longer worth supporting. Pull the plug on the Senate bill like he recommend and send it back to the House.
  • musashi1
    why should we support obamas giveaway to the insurance industry? hes a total failure,
    and a complete sell-out! all the people (like myself) who voted for him and realize theyve
    been punked should rise up and make sure hes goes down the way of bush 1 and carter,
    a one term wonder, and a total disgrace! at least carter had integrity, i dont think i can
    same the same for george bushes souls brother obummer.
  • Harmonika Savingsbonds
    Try this on for size:

    The administration never had any intention of providing the US with a public option or ANY "change" to our current health care systems. It was never supposed to happen, and we were all lied to.

    Then Joe Lieberman agrees to be propped up as THE REASON we won't get it. And he knew what his role was.

    Apparently even our president is in the pockets of the insurance companies.
  • mledford27613
    Scrap this piece of garbage. I really don't understand the problem with getting with Canada and France to see how theirs works create one for the United States based on those models and move forward. Oh I forgot representatives only represent Corporate Amerika. Sorry I forgot where I was again. Old beliefs die hard.
  • Tesla
    It was Dean's political genius (50 state approach) that put the demo-crats in the majority so Rahm Emanuel got the credit for it. This bill stinks! With forced enrollment (on pain of penalties), no publis option, no drug price negotiations, no drug re-importation, no premium controls, and with a cap on benefits paid out, and the anti-trust laws don't apply to the insurance companies,this is nothing more than a giant transfer of taxpayer money to big pharma and the insurance companies. CEO's will still pull down huge salaries and bonuses while the quality of care covered by this dog deteriorates. Call your representatives and senators and explain how hard re-election for them will be if this turkey passes into law.
  • Antinous
    Dean is right, kill it! Maybe one day the Democrats will grow a set of balls and regain their principles, Until then let the damn party die on the vine. Obama has been the biggest disappointment of all, what a phony. When he was running he had all these grande ideas and big talk, now that he's elected his head is as empty as a gourd. Where is Hillary when we need her, working for this loser that's where. I could kick my own ass for voting for this pretender, but I won't make this mistake twice. He's let everybody else do the work he was suppose be doing, he had zero ideas, all he had was a mouth and a speech writer, an empty suit.

    Had Dean been elected when he ran, this country would not be in this mess. He is one of the few left with a shred of integrity.
  • douvie
    I'm with Dean. Scrap the whole thing and let it fall apart. Obama is just another neocon who allowed (read encouraged with a wink) the shafting of middle America. Every progressive points to the bill as ending pre-existing conditions. Do they tell you that insurance companies will charge you over 3X's as much for coverage? On my plan, that's $2700 per month. Only insurance execs can afford that. Oh, and maybe Tim Geithner and his Wall Street buds.
  • m3t
    Seriously, I agree with Dean... what we have left is just worthless. Another corrupt CFR puppet pushing for now-bogus "reform" that does more to help corporations than it does people.

    Both major political parties need to be scrapped and the system of governance rebuilt completely... the current system, whether ran by red liars or blue liars is failing, is hurting people and is increasing the divide between the wealthy and poor... whilst achieving very little progress.

    A meritocracy (the more good you do, the more trust and influence you are awarded) or even a true democracy (unlike the bullshit we currently have) with a resource based economy is impossilbe while the astounding greed of an undeservingly privileged few... stands in the way.
  • seen2much
    Hmmm, A steep tax and tariff on tea that the east india company was exempt from sparked the Boston Tea party. You see the east india company was the wal-mart and health insurance of it's day, big, bad, and totally in bed with the government of at the time the worlds biggest empire(britain).
    Today the sun does not set on the American empire... The government, at the request of the insurance companies will FORCE us to buy their worthless insurance.....

    Just try and add another massive bill under threat of imprisonment on these already financially strapped people...

    Ammunition sales are still through the roof. The calibers .223(ar-15) 7.62X39(ak-47) .308(sniper rifles and heavy assault rifles) are hard to find. If you do find them, it is because that store limits 2 small boxes of ammo per customer. Even then, I've seen people show up with many friends and buy out what is available. All combat effective ammo is VERY hard to find. A lot of people are scared and aggravated, and literally, sitting on powder kegs.

    The mood on the blogosphere is downright hostile, toward ALL sides of government. Many are disenfranchised with the status quo.

    Most people seem to be stressed this holiday into the red zone.

    These idiots who lord over us are playing with matches in a fireworks factory. We could all too easily end up burned VERY badly.

    "Never ascribe to malice that which is better explained by incompetence." -Napoleone Boneaprte

    Make these morons put away their matches before we ALL get burned. I don't want us to go down this road. I just want to run my businesses, tend my farm, and raise my kids into healthy and happy people.

    The abyss our "leaders" are steering us into will make all those things virtually impossible, until long after my grandchildren, if we make it that far as a species.

    The collapse of this empire could easily trigger a new dark ages, one far more horrific than the last one. One from which the extinction of humanity would be a likelihood.

    You see, the real problem is something you can't see. When the soviets collapsed, the open cry for help they sent out to contain their nukes and the western response to help them reign in the stockpiles in breakaway states was one of the post cold war feel-good stories.

    But the REAL story was the stuff that had the egghead analysts and "Tough as woodpecker" lips policymakers along with meateating operators waking up late at night in cold sweats were the "nasty of the nasties" stored in test tubes and petri dishes. Above all, the former soviets wanted those items secured.. At all costs. Many dark secrets were coughed up with extreme cooperation from the russkies to help all who came to clean out the fridge.

    If we destabilize, a VERY real possibility given the scope and depth of this financial crises(Empires ALL collapse because of monetary reasons), who will come to clean our fridge? A crowded fridge since we still hold some seriously scary crap for the russians, along with our horrors. A fridge filled with nightmares beyond anything the most twisted sociopath could ever envision. All paid for and researched with YOUR tax dollars.

    If you thought swine flu is scary.. Wait till you see what they did with pink eye...

    Baa! BAAAA! Little sheeple, have you any meat to pay the wolves?
  • Independentgal
    I believe if it doesn't do any HARM to Americans, let it continue. This is a case where "accessories" (like the public option, etc.) can be added later. I understand Dr. Dean's frustrations, and I share them, but Liebermann, Snowe, Landrieu (sp?), etc. might find reelection difficult, especially if they aren't representing their constituents. Let this be an issue that's on the books as a law that helps Americans, albeit minimally. That's more than has ever been done before.
  • Sam
    People would indeed be harmed if they don't have money for food or a place to live or electricity because they are forced to use what little money they have in this dismal economy to pay for some required "health insurance" to some rip-off mangled health conglomerate. I think if most people could currently afford some form of affordable, high quality health "insurance," they would already have it. Don't you? (Rhetorical question). Sigh.

    And you are concerned about the re-election of Liebermann? Oh yes, we wouldn't want to be without him now would we?!...that useless Bush-accomplice piece of trash.
  • Independentgal
    I have to admit that I agree with you. People ARE being harmed today. I'm just afraid to let go when we're so close to getting one foot in the door, believing we can get the other foot in if the first one is in firmly. I'm totally in favor of a public option (prefer single payor, really). I believe if the people really want it, they will be able to identify who the obstructionists are and vote to keep them out of office, such as Liebermann. Otherwise, if a plan is not in place, the Republicans will never bring up the idea again (unless the insurance companies whine that they want more money). A changing tide in Congress might help bring about the changes to the plan that we really need.

    When it's all said and done, though, I guess I'm just struggling to hold on to the one thread of humanity left in this country, those who want to help the people instead of the corporations. As has been mentioned on this board in other places, there are a few good Congresspeople, and they're making their voices heard.

    Regarding Liebermann (and those of his ilk), yes, I want to see him go down, down, DOWN!
  • lorn
    Obstructionist identification. Every single Senator and Congresscriminal, with one exception, Dennis Kucinich.
    Holding on to the one thread of humanity left in this country. It and the Democrats are not the same thing. There is abundant humanity left in this country, beautiful and strong, honest and courageous. It just does not exist in either political party. They are the cancer, the poison and the treason. They ban humanity, they punish it and if necessary they kill it. You clearly still have it. Don't waste it on either fascist party, they are not worthy of your respect. It hurts to let go, but not for long. Good luck.
  • missfitz
    Who the eff cares what Josh Marshall thinks about anything? And once again, Howard Dean speaks truth to power, and Rahm Emanuel will hate Dean all the more for it, because Rahn, Obama's Chief of Staff (god, why?) is a thug.
  • ignatzh
    "Obama warned that inaction will create many more problems. "If we don't get this done, your premiums are guaranteed to go up"

    What a pantload. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in this pile of dreck the Dems are trying to hand us instead of HCR, that will limit the industry from continuing to charge what they like. There is also no regulatory teeth in the provisions against denial of coverage. You will of course have the same privilege that you do now of hiring a lawyer and bankrupt yourself fighting the same bunch of bastards and pimps who continue to own the whores on both sides of the aisle. We have no choice but to vote third Party, any Third party, and finally force the Dems back into some semblance of progressiveness.
  • disappointedvoter
    Hooray for Howard Dean!

    And fuck Obama.
  • walden9
    The Democrats are out of alibis. If there wasn't a Republican "opposition," they'd create it--and they do!
  • johnhkennedy
    "Obama warned that inaction will create many more problems.
    "If we don't get this done, your premiums are guaranteed to go up," he said."

    If that isn't the dumbest thing he has said.

    Since there is no Public Option, or Medicare Option or Single Payer that Would Keep Premiums Down...

    OF COURSE OR PREMIUMS WILL GO UP!!!
    And Obama has done nothing to stop that.

    Senate Democrats would be wise to KILL THIS ABOMINATION and start over again in January "From Scratch".

    NO Welfare for rich Insurance Companies.


    and

    SIGN the PETITION
    calling for Torture Prosecution

    http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG



    If you and I cannot hold them responsible for the heinous crime of Torture
    we will never make them hear us on any topic


    Remember the public option and Single Payer?
    Make our politicians fear you.
    Prosecute them!

    .
  • alfredo
    take Lieberman, hang him by his balls until dead and/or castrated, which ever comes last.
  • winski
    The Senate bill should be killed as a piece of garbage - tonight. Dean is absolutely correct. Leiberwocky should be ejected from the Senate. Reid will be defeated in his election re-bid..AND, Obama has just become a lame-duck president.
  • skyreader7
    Can we do a recall? Recall Obama and put in Hillary. What a mess all this is. Obama, wake up.
  • Sam
    You want to replace one war criminal (Obama) with another war criminal (Hillary)?

    If you're dissatisfied, stopping voting for parties and millionaires.

    War criminal Obama is quite awake and working for his owners. He's not who and what you want to believe he is. His Bush-accomplice voting record made it quite clear what he was/is about. Did you happen to examine his voting record? Most people couldn't be bothered to do so. It was easier for them to chant "hope" and "change we can believe in" marketing slogans mindlessly and to project themselves onto him than to make the effort of looking at his voting record and listening to what he said outside of his feel-good pabulum speeches (intended to dupe those who would allow themselves to be duped).

    He's done exactly as I and others (Nader and McKinney voters) thought he would do. War criminal Obama is following the Cheney/Bush PNAC agenda precisely, and Cheney gets his orders from the corporations.
  • hawk
    Give them hell,Governor Dean,The repuks prove'd over the last 30+ years that they can't govern.
    It must have rub of on the Dem's
  • jimmo
    What is the use of voting in this country, anymore? It is a money rigged system of government sell out artists. Both Republicans and Democrats. The only thing that will save this country is another party. I will not vote again with the present two. Let the Repugs in and they will destroy the country and the planet.
  • guest
    whatever.
  • truth hunter
    I love this quote:

    Obama warned that inaction will create many more problems. "If we don't get this done, your premiums are guaranteed to go up," he said.

    Well, I voted for this guy and you know what? My premiums ALREADY WENT UP 50% last week. My only option was to dump my plan and get into a crappy high deductible plan with a $5,200 deductible and an $11,000 out of pocket max. And this is even BEFORE "reform." THIS "reform" is going to make things better? I doubt it. I will admit and I will say it very clearly: Pres. Obama sold out and is a bitter disappointment. Not that I'm surprised. He just confirms what I felt all along, that no politician, even if you give him or her the benefit of the doubt, will do the right thing for you and I. But they will always do what benefits themselves and their cronies.

    Things sucked under Bush. I guess things will just continue to suck under Obama.
  • Sam
    War Criminal Obama "sold out?" Nope. His voting record from the short time he was in the senate made it quite clear who and what he was about. He served as a Bush-accomplice in the senate. Some of us tried to present his voting record on this site during the campaign, but we were shouted down by chants of "hope" and "change we can believe in" and "Repug troll" and "Rove operative" and other such drivel by the Obamabots. Some of them are still making excuses for him and saying, "you can't abandon him now." Obviously some people love to be shit on. jesus fuking christ, what drugs are these pathetic Obamabot people on?

    War Criminal Obama has not sold out. One would only think that if they had not take the time to examine his Bush-accomplice voting record during the campaign. It was quite clear during the campaign who he would be working for: the same owners the Cheney/Bush regime worked for (which includes but is not limited to the PNAC group).
  • Freedom's Toast
    I remain absolutely astounded by the concrete-like consistency of the Dems. They are weak as kittens; a hand-wringing, timid lot, all too concerned about how they'll win elections without their constituency of corporations. Oddly, it's the same constituency wooed by Republicans.

    I"m with ya Dean-o! Fuck this bill. It's a bill--amazingly similar in its genesis to the energy bill preceded by secret meetings with Cheney--written by PhRMA, for PhRMA. It represents another example of business-as-usual. This tired PR gimmick has worn thin.


    Mr. Obama, and you sorry-assed weak Democrats (especially the "moderates"/Blue Dogs),

    Corporations can't cast ballots yet, so forget those votes. And while you're at it, you might think about all the votes we, the people, won't bother casting in 2012. You don't seem any more interested in Joe-six-pack than Sarah Half-Governor, Half-wit Palin.

    But the joke's really on us, huh. Good one. I almost, every once in a while after those grand speeches with all the purty words, believe you mean it. But then it comes time to walk the walk, and you fall down like a drunken two-year-old wearing oiled shoes on an ice rink.
    The incompetency and insincerity of this administration is beginning to rankle. In fact, it is beginning to seem not so much like incompetency, but a cynical hoodwinking of the very people who won this election for Mr. Obama--we the people.

    While ignoring the criminal malfeasance of the previous administration, thereby becoming an accessory and willing participant, Mr. Obama has very quietly been overseeing the re-authorization of contracts to war profiteers. The fraud in these contracts alone (that you and I wind up paying for) would have gone a long way toward health coverage for Americans.
    But we, regular old Americans, aren't in the game, are we, Mr. Obama. We aren't given a seat at the table.

    The fix has been in since the meetings with PhRMA. As previous posters have correctly observed, it's all been political theater.
    Gosh, but that was an expensive ticket. (And, like Mrs. Lincoln, I did not particularly care for the show.)
  • Sam
    I remain absolutely astounded by the concrete-like consistency of the Dems. They are weak as kittens; a hand-wringing, timid lot

    ----------------------------------------

    Well then you don't understand who and what the Dems really are and are about. You apparently have this illusion or delusion about them which is not based in reality. Since 2000, the corporate Dems have had a spine of steel for serving as accomplices and enablers to the Bush regime, and now the Obama regime (which is continuing the Cheney/Bush agenda). The Bush regime and the Repugs could not have accomplished their agenda without the consistent Republican-enabling spine of steel from the Dems. One thing after the other they voted "yes" for in helping to shred the US Constitution and escalating the PNAC agenda. Were the Dems required to vote yes? No. They did so willingly because in reality they agree with their "friends" the Repugs.

    As soon as The People realize who and what the Dems really are, as opposed to what The People expect them to be, The People will stop talking about how the Dems are "weak, "spineless," "timid" and all that other stuff. The Dems work for and are paid by the same owners as the Repugs. It's a one party system charading as two parties.

    But the Dems are not spineless whatsoever. They have a very strong spine. Most of them are Republicans charading as Dems to fool their gullible disciples who will consistently vote for them no matter what they do (to continue the destruction of this nation). The D behind their name is sufficient for most of their brainwashed disciples (the D voters). The same is true for the Repug voters.

    Republicans and Democrats. Same Shit. Different Assholes.
  • Freedom's Toast
    LOL, I like what you're saying, I just don't see it like that.
    I think it's a very corrupt institution, and a corrupting process. And while there were, and still are, some Ds who profited handsomely from the war, I see a definite difference of ideology. It isn't enough to rely upon, as a citizen subject to the whims of millionaires, but it's there.
  • lorn
    I just don't see it like that. What you are really saying is that the Sam logic and facts are impossible to deny. But you have an emotional block, you need to believe that the system is not rigged or broken. You can't handle the hard ugly painful truth that the two party system is a sham which is killing America. Those two parties work together united in their dedication serving corporate power and keeping us people in the dark.
    As long as people believe in one side or the other, this country is doomed. Once people wake up and face reality and see both R's and D's as the enemy of the people, maybe, maybe we can take out country back. For now, ignorance and fear allow the two party system to exist and to keep us down.
  • Sam
    Where's the "definite difference of ideology" you speak of? Both parties are:

    pro-Bush regime (the Dems helped them accomplish their goals for 8 years with their yes votes, their complicity and their silence)
    both are pro-war
    both pro-PNAC
    both pro-corporate
    both pro-military industrial complex
    both pro-torture
    both pro-"impeachment off the table"
    both pro-rendition
    both pro-illegal spying
    both pro-USA Patriot Act
    both pro-mountain top removal
    both opposed to We The People having the same health care that they all do, free of charge.
    .... and I could go on and on. And I'm sure others could add to the list.

    And War Criminal Obama has continued nearly all of the Cheney/Bush/Rove regime's PNAC agenda. War Criminal Obama began immediately---he hadn't even been in office a week---by committing the war crime of droning Pakistan and killing innocent people there.

    Where's this supposed "definite difference in ideology" that you speak of?
  • ICONOCLASM
    All one need do is take a look back at the 1960's and early 70's and you'd when our healthcare was top notch and everyone was cared for to realize it was government intervention that ruined healthcare to begin with.

    GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE HEALTHCARE BUSINESS AND GO BACK TO BETTER TIMES!
  • rebeltoady
    Why do you say that? I don't agree as I don't see where the government got into the healthcare business in any way which has caused the current exponential cost increases, but I'm interested in your view on this.
  • kill it - kill it - kill it! we gotta pass a bill that forces everyone to buy junk insurance packages or else what? the rates will go up? the sky will fall? KILL THIS BILL !

    who the hell elected lieberman or nelson or lincoln or carper or conrad, or baucus president? barrack obama, if you sign this, you are guaranteed to be a 1-termer - the knuckle draggers won't vote for you - and your BASE is leaving you in droves!

    44,789 adults die each year because they lack health insurance coverage - but we need to save [bailout] the insurance industry? how many 1000s more go bankrupt each year because of insurance company cost cutting, fine print and profiteering? where are these guarantees for consumers regarding the life and death policy decisions of these profit-taking middlemen?

    gawd, what an evil, ignorant empire you've become!

    3,000 people died on 9/11 and we rushed to war - committing trillions and have killed and displaced millions. mr. peace prize has just committed you to at least 5 more years of drain on the public good.

    after hearing the president tell us how much money will be saved several times before adding, "and lives" i am convinced:

    obama is "w" with spellchecker ... hourglass
  • j_in_omaha
    I'm on a number of Democratic e-mail lists and I'm always getting solicited for money to help Obama fight. What a bunch of crap! I donated, organized, and voted. It is time for Democrats to act! No more acting or money from me because they cannot lead their way around a Lieberman or a Ben Nelson. That is in essence powerless and ineffective when two crooks can block anything.
  • turnip
    This outcome, more or less, was what was agreed to by the insurance companies months ago.
    The key players will make a show of fighting the other 'side', all the while knowing, but that is just the theater required to continue the illusion that there are two 'parties' in DC. There isn't. Us, Them. That is all.
  • right you are, turnip. it's all kabuki ... masks and make-up and out of pitch ...

    "we the people" ... the last myth standing ... hourglass
  • grindermonkey
    Parliamentary procedure is the only way to conduct the public's business anymore. It will confound the people at Pox News
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